Waiting to have children after marriage

[AITB]

Originally posted by DanPC:
How about turning that around and saying, how can it not be a sin to ignore expert advice and go ahead and risk your life for no reason, since birth control is available? ----

Well say Presdident Bush needed a heart to live as his is in bad shape. And you are the only match in the world that would work. Would it be a sin for you not to give yours up?

Of course not! Doesn't that argue my point of view, not yours?

There's nothing in the Bible that says I am to leave my children without a Mom and my husband without a wife for President Bush's sake. Are you seriously saying I should give him my heart? Everyone is equal in God's eyes. My husband is as important as President Bush to God and so am I, aren't I?

(There are natural ways of avoiding pregnancy that are about 99% effective--she may have tried these. Plus they don't have the abortifacient quailities of hormonal birth control nor the moral aspects either)

If contraceptives are morally wrong, then so is 'natural birth control' because both are ways of trying to get around the natural consequences of physical intimacy. If you think that's subverting God's will then 'natural' is just as sinful as using non-abortifacient devices.

Helen/AITB

 

[DanPC]

++++If contraceptives are morally wrong, then so is 'natural birth control'
because both are ways of trying to get around the natural consequences of
physical intimacy. If you think that's subverting God's will then 'natural'
is just as sinful as using non-abortifacient devices.++++

One does not have to have sex with ones spouse with both agree not to do so
for whatever reason. This is not a sin. Artificial birth control is.
Christian churches have taught so since the first century (see Didache) and
all of them continued to do so until the Lambeth Conference in 1930. The
Anglicans allowed birth control for married people in difficult
circumstances. Soon thereafter the rest of the non-Catholic Christian world
jumped on the bandwagon. Soon it went from difficult cases --life of mother
situations--to everyday usage for everyone. What God has joined together
(sex for love and life) let no one put asunder. The pitiful morals in the US
and the West are somewhat attributable to this tragice break with Christian
teaching in 1930.
You are right in that they both have the same end. I can obtain $500 from a
bank by withdrawing money from my account legally or I can rob the bank and
get the $500. Either way I get the $500 although the latter way is illegal.

 

[DanPC]

==Are you seriously saying I should give him my heart? Everyone is equal in God's eyes. My husband is as important as President Bush to God and so am I, aren't I?++
What I was saying is just because something is possible and good--prolonging the President's life--doesn't mean that one can take any means (immoral) to obtain it. If ABC is wrong, it is wrong no matter the circumstances.

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by DanPC:

One does not have to have sex with ones spouse with both agree not to do so
for whatever reason. This is not a sin.

Yes it is, according to 1 Cor 7. Unless you abstain only for a short time and so you can pray. "For birth control" is not listed as an acceptable reason to abstain in 1 Cor 7. Regardless of what you go on to say churches have taught.

Artificial birth control is [a sin].
Christian churches have taught so since the first century (see Didache) and
all of them continued to do so until the Lambeth Conference in 1930.

How about quoting the Bible instead of church history? Churches can be wrong.

If ABC is wrong, it is wrong no matter the circumstances.

Then...applying what you wrote, if birth control is wrong, it is wrong whether it's achieved through devices or timing.

Helen/AITB

[ December 22, 2002, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: AITB ]

 

[LAWC]

posted December 22, 2002 02:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
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While certain issues should be kept between man and wife, the discussion that was first at hand was a discussion about whether is it thwarting God's will (or a sin) to wait after marriage to have children (by usuing contraceptives)...

So, while how many kids, and when you have them may be something to discuss between you and your husband, the issue of contraceptives is one that can be discussed considering there are two views and one is that they are a sin....do you want to sin if you don't know something is sinful, but you're not aware of it? Well..that's the point to this thread. To discuss whether or not it is sinful. "

I agree, to some extent. However, when other Christians judge specificially how or how not one practices birth control, I beleive that is an interference in one's marriage bed. Obviously this is a question that no one will agree on if or if not it is a sin, so then you end up running on the line of judging other's marriage bed.

 

[DanPC]

====Yes it is, according to 1 Cor 7. Unless you abstain only for a short time and so you can pray. "For birth control" is not listed as an acceptable reason to abstain in 1 Cor 7. ===My translation only says for a while. But even using a short time. How long is that? Does your Bible say that? Could it be a week to 10 days--about the time of abstinence needed to avoid pregnancy using natural means of avoiding pregnancy? I notice that the Bible didn't say it was okay to avoid if you are sick, tired, etc.

+++How about quoting the Bible instead of church history? Churches can be wrong.+++
That was the point. The churches that changed their doctrines in the 1930s are wrong on this issue. Either that or they were wrong for 1900 years. Which is it? And if they are wrong now, what does that make the church that didn't change its position? Appears to have been right all along.

+++Then...applying what you wrote, if birth control is wrong, it is wrong whether it's achieved through devices or timing.+++
ABC= artificial birth control--ie condoms, pills, IUDs, etc.
I didn't say birth control was wrong...my point is there are wrong ways to achieve or avoid pregnancy. ABC is wrong

 

[AITB]

DanPC,

I'd like to see you distinguish Biblically between artificial non-abortifacent BC and natural BC instead of just 'asserting' that the former is sinful but the latter isn't. I see no moral difference. You're either trying to avoid conception or you're not. It's either ok to do that or it isn't.

I think it's irrelevant that 1 Cor 7 doesn't mention sickness or tiredness as reasons for temporary abstinence. Abstaining because of sickness or tiredness is very different from deliberately pre-arranging times of intimacy to minimize the chances of conception.

So, please give me a Biblical justification for why you believe God is happy for people to avoid conception one way but not another. I would like to know if there is one.

And as far as I'm concerned, yes, the church could have been wrong on some things for 1900 years. I don't consider what the church has believed for 1900 years to prove anything.

Helen/AITB

 

[DanPC]

Does your demand for biblical evidence extend to the Trinity, going to church on Sunday instead of Saturday, the canon of the bible, etc?

+++And as far as I'm concerned, yes, the church could have been wrong on some things for 1900 years.+++
I guess the gates of hell did prevail against it then.

+++Abstaining because of sickness or tiredness is very different from deliberately pre-arranging times of intimacy to minimize the chances of conception.++++
How is that? Do you have a biblical reference for that? If not, perhaps you might want to accept what has been taught since the first century (Didache) through the current one. I am sorry it was only the teaching of the Protestants until the 1930's. The world would be a much better place if they hadn't jumped ship. (Less abortions, less divorce, less cohabitation, etc etc etc) I don't know. Are these still considered sins these days?

 

[AdoptedDaughter]

Dan,

You're a Catholic, right? Well...Catholics aren 't any better than any other denomination....Catholics are just as bad as anyone else, because it is the person that makes the decision, not the religion/denomination/group....

Please refrain from trying to insult or come across as insulting...Thank you!

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by DanPC:
Does your demand for biblical evidence extend to the Trinity, going to church on Sunday instead of Saturday, the canon of the bible, etc?

Of course!

+++And as far as I'm concerned, yes, the church could have been wrong on some things for 1900 years.+++
I guess the gates of hell did prevail against it then.

The gates of hell not prevailing doesn't mean the church would be 100% perfectly right. If you think it does then with all due respect I think you've misunderstood that verse.

+++Abstaining because of sickness or tiredness is very different from deliberately pre-arranging times of intimacy to minimize the chances of conception.++++
How is that? Do you have a biblical reference for that?

It's obvious.

If not, perhaps you might want to accept what has been taught since the first century (Didache) through the current one. I am sorry it was only the teaching of the Protestants until the 1930's. The world would be a much better place if they hadn't jumped ship. (Less abortions, less divorce, less cohabitation, etc etc etc) I don't know. Are these still considered sins these days?

I expect that depends who you ask. Some people don't even believe in sin, do they?

Helen/AITB

 

[Karen]

Originally posted by DanPC:
Karen wrote "There are many women, including me, who have been told by their doctors that death was a real possibility from becoming pregnant again."

You might consider another doctor. I have a friend who has at least 4 kids after her doctor told her the same thing....

As a matter of fact, I did not consult just one doctor on this issue. I wanted more children.
We looked into this deeply.

Karen

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Headcoveredlady:
If Jesus calls them to attend college He will also provide the money. My Jesus is a very rich man.

HCL

More likely than not, Jesus will let a person decide if they want to go to college, and give them the resources to come of with the money themselves. Rich men are not Santa Clauses.

 

[IlovetheBible]

Originally posted by baptistforever:
Dan,

You're a Catholic, right? Well...Catholics aren 't any better than any other denomination....Catholics are just as bad as anyone else, because it is the person that makes the decision, not the religion/denomination/group....

Please refrain from trying to insult or come across as insulting...Thank you!

Who made you moderator? Huh?

 

[Headcoveredlady]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Headcoveredlady:
If Jesus calls them to attend college He will also provide the money. My Jesus is a very rich man.

HCL

More likely than not, Jesus will let a person decide if they want to go to college, and give them the resources to come of with the money themselves. Rich men are not Santa Clauses.</font>[/QUOTE]Johnv,
Your post was highly offensive to me . I never said Jesus was a Santa Claus.

And the Jesus I know has promised to provide all of my needs and all of the needs of those who are seeking first His Kingdom and His righteousness. Him, Matthew 6:33.

If my children "need," to go to college than Jesus will provide a way for them to go. If that is His will then He will provide them their every need. And EVERY GOOD GIFT COMES FROM THE FATHER.

I am constantly amazed when Christians give themselves credit for the good things they receive when the Word says:

James 2:17, "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom their is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."

HCL

 

[IlovetheBible]

I think what John recognizes is that you should work hard for what you want and need. You should not expect handouts. God will provide- indeed! But those things that we earn are from God. You may not intend this, but many of your posts are coming off that you expect handouts from others, and not to work for the things you have (or your husband).

 

[Johnv]

I mean no offense. But I think the phrase "God will provide" is so overused in Christian vocabulary, it often gets to the point where we're to believe that we're supposed to just sit back and let God do the work, and that for us to work for it will somehow interfere with God's plan. God doesn't give us what we want. He gives us what we need. There's no mistake that something like a college education is important, and should, in my opinion, be something that every parent should be telling their kids is mandatory, for education is the one thing that can not be taken from you. But to just assume that God will provide the funds, to me, is like saying God will provide the grades. Yet such a thought is in my opinion blasphemous.

Noah was told that a flood was coming, and was pretty much told that if he didn't start building a boat, he wouldn't survive the flood. How much would Noah have achieved if he had simply thought God was going to give him a boat? Far from. God told Noah to build the boat himself, and if he did so according to God's plan, then he his cargo and crew will survive. God gives us the ability to achieve through hard work. College, and the paying thereof, is no exception. The most productive gift that God gives us is the ability for us to work hard and achieve. By achieving, we glorify God via using the gift he has already given us.

[ December 23, 2002, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

[Headcoveredlady]

Originally posted by Bro. Adam:
I think what John recognizes is that you should work hard for what you want and need. You should not expect handouts. God will provide- indeed! But those things that we earn are from God. You may not intend this, but many of your posts are coming off that you expect handouts from others, and not to work for the things you have (or your husband).

Yes, my husband is still under the curse the last time I checked and yes he works very hard to provide for us, but that does not void out what James said in 2:17. It says that EVERY GOOD GIFT AND EVERY PERFECT GIFT COMES FROM THE FATHER OF LIGHTS.

Yes, there are the consequences of reaping and sowing even for the ungodly. But, God says He is the provider of all good gifts. I choose to believe His Word.

HCL

 

[IlovetheBible]

You just aren't understanding are you

 

[DanPC]

A few groups against the use of ABC (artificial birth control) All Christian churches--Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant until 1930. Catholic Church still against ABC.

Groups for the use of ABC--Planned Parenthood, all pro-abortion groups, Protestant churches (perhaps Orthodox as well) since the 1930s, Communist China, Soviet Union (where 10 abortions is not unusual for a woman), radical feminists.

The acceptance of ABC by a society is soon followed by the acceptance of abortion. You can't have one (this is speaking as a society) without the other. Gotta have something to back up ABC for the unmarried, married that don't want any more children, etc. Look around the world and find a country that has recently accepted the use of ABC. Fairly soon you will see them joining our society with abortions.

 

[Headcoveredlady]

Excellent Post Danpc, and sad as well.