Walter Martin points out that the Adventist denomination is not a cult. Continued

[BobRyan]

How are we doing that?

Hopefully we are not doing that - or breaking any other of God's Commandments

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus promised to build His true church, that hell and satan would not stop it, yet EW thought that until her coming, 1800 years the true church was left abandon!

Are you making stuff up on the spot- or do you stop and think first??

 

[BobRyan]

I'll present you with the same question i asked Bob....

Here is the bottom line One, there are two choices. Tell me which one you choose...

A) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
.

That's the one .. but as I said before - your choice to be at war with Matthew 18 is not one of the choices that is valid for us.

 

[BobRyan]

steaver said: ↑
I believe that means you would despise EGW's religion then. No other Christian sect for some 1800 years before EGW believed the things she dreamed up. That would mean God would have to be incompetent for not clearly interpreting His Word by the Holy Ghost to His children for 1800 years.

Less creative writing... more Bible please

Your go to answer when you cannot defend your faith.

Hint: you have to challenge an actual doctrine to create something for me to defend.

As it is you are settling for "Making stuff up" which is not even close to an actual challenge. As I have said before - you have free will and if you want to simply use your time to "make stuff up".. fine use it as you wish.

I prefer the actual Bible... you know "Bible doctrine".

 

[BobRyan]

-- OSAS does not surive the test of "Sola Scriptura"


Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.

32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Indeed -- Christ shows us the "fully forgiven" about whom it is said "I forgave you ALL" and yet due to subsequent actions of the "fully forgiven" -- they experience forgiveness revoked. until he should pay all that was due

Question for the reader -- In your POV is there such a thing as "Salvation where you pay your own debt of sin" -- having been "forgiven all" he then had to "repay all".. OR is Christ simply mistaken in your POV?

OSAS does not survive the sola-scriptura test in Matthew 18 nor in Romans 11 nor in Ezekiel 18 (nor even Matthew 6)

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

steaver said: ↑
We know that eternal life is the gift of God..."the gift of God is eternal life..."

We know that this gift is through Jesus Christ our Lord..."the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord".

We know this gift of God is through faith and not of yourselves..."For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"

True.

And we know this -


Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

And we know this --

Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.

32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

steaver said: ↑
Took you about two seconds for you to continue to quote YOU! You cannot change, bc you are stuck with EGW.

Here is the bottom line Bob, there are two choices. Tell me which one you choose...

A) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

B) For by forgiving your servant ye are saved, and that of yourselves, it is the law of God.

1. You see quote after quote of scripture and claim that my posting scripture is merely "quoting me"
2. I see your post complainging about what you read in Matthew 18 and then blaming the Matthew 18 text "on me" as if I quoted myself by posting it..

I think we can all see at least that "detail". Essentially you are arguing with Matthew 18 and "blaming it on me" because I dared to quote Matthew 18.

Where is the difficult part there?

Apparently in you not being able to answer a question. Just because you post a bunch of scripture doesn't mean you are applying it correctly.

Of course you are free to differ and to point to any area where you feel the quote is not 'verbatim' - but we both know that quote "is verbatim"... you point to "no detail in the text" that is not correct - so you settle for vitriol "instead".

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"?

Why not come "back to the Bible" and have a Bible discussion "instead"???

so what we need from you is a base line position on salvation and then we can go from there.

Here is the bottom line Bob, there are two choices. Tell me which one you choose...

A) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

As I said before... "that is the one".

And "being at war against Christ's teaching in Matthew 18 - is NOT the one".

you knew that .. right?

 

[Walter]

The SDA is pro-choice, as is made clear on their official website and the thousands of abortions that have been performed in their Adventists hospitals by Adventists doctors. That alone makes this church apostate.

Abortion

Now Bob will come back and say that his church would never allow his churches abortion mills to operate such place if only 'Catholic'' (in name only) judges had not voted for it. In other words, his church leadership and the SDA World Church follows what cultural Catholics have allowed.

 

[BobRyan]

The SDA is pro-choice, as is made clear on their official website .

No voted statement by the SDA denomination supports abortion on demand or for any reason other than to save life and no doctrinal statements support it either. Exec Comm makes its decisions without a supporting/endorsing vote from the denomination.

(Not what this thread is about - as much as it is fun to derail the thread with that)

 

[BobRyan]

Abortion
Now Bob will come back and say that his church would never allow .

Thankfully the Supreme court is dominated by Catholic justices so we don't have abortion on demand in America.. oh no wait!!

Thankfully the Supreme Court is dominated by Catholic justices so we don't have same-sex-marriage in America ... on no wait!

Sadly the "reason" that we have both of those issues in America is because of the fact that "the Supreme Court is dominated by Catholic justices" who then tip the scales in favor of those problems.

Then to add to that Catholics who want "the issue but not the solution" will try to ignore that "elephant in the living room" as if "blaming others" will cause us to forget that "the Supreme Court is dominated by Catholic justices".

And so they will bring that off-topic point up on any thread they can.

IN this case Walter "Appears" to argue that any denomination with members that promote abortion is a cult. How sad that the "reason" that we have both abortion and same-sex marriage issues in America is because of the fact that "the Supreme Court is dominated by Catholic justices" and they tip the scales in favor of promoting those two issues.

I feel bad for Catholics and usually do not bring that up - but a few them love to be reminded of it - so... I guess it must be posted.

 

[BobRyan]

What is even more sad for Catholics is that this topic below that the thread has migrated to - is one that Catholics could have contributed to as per the solution and the Bible support of it... still we have Walter ignoring every area of contribution and the entire topic to remind us that "the Supreme Court is dominated by Catholic justices".

-- OSAS does not surive the test of "Sola Scriptura"

Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.

32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Indeed -- Christ shows us the "fully forgiven" about whom it is said "I forgave you ALL" and yet due to subsequent actions of the "fully forgiven" -- they experience forgiveness revoked. until he should pay all that was due

Question for the reader -- In your POV is there such a thing as "Salvation where you pay your own debt of sin" -- having been "forgiven all" he then had to "repay all".. OR is Christ simply mistaken in your POV?

OSAS does not survive the sola-scriptura test in Matthew 18 nor in Romans 11 nor in Ezekiel 18 (nor even Matthew 6)

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[BobRyan]

Now Bob will come back and say that his church would never allow his churches abortion ...

No, what Bob will come back with is fact that the Adventist church has zero influence over the status of abortion and same sex marriage in America - and that if all the Adventist supreme court justices (zero) voted against it - there would still be no change in America on those two issues. Then Bob will point out that the "reason" that we have both of those issues in America is because of the fact that "the Supreme Court is dominated by Catholic justices" who tip the scales in favor of those issues.


All of which is merely Walter's derail-every-thread effort for his interest "in the issue, not the solution"

 

[steaver]

As I said before... "that is the one".

And "being at war against Christ's teaching in Matthew 18 - is NOT the one".

you knew that .. right?

Wonderful! Since you chose "A", it would be YOU who is at war against Matt 18 in that you see "forgiveness revoked". Either "A" is true or YOUR "forgiveness revoked because of yourself" is true. Sorry Bob, you can't have it both ways.

Hint, if you do really believe salvation is NOT of yourself, you may want to look at Matt 18 from a "forgiveness rejected due to unbelief" pov. Then Matt 18 will line up with your "A" choice. As well as Romans 11 and every other misapplied passage you have used against "A" in the past.

 

[Walter]

No voted statement by the SDA denomination supports abortion on demand or for any reason other than to save life and no doctrinal statements support it either. Exec Comm makes its decisions without a supporting/endorsing vote from the denomination.

(Not what this thread is about - as much as it is fun to derail the thread with that)

Your OFFICIAL SDA WEBSITE makes it very clear what the SDA position on abortion is. No vote needed. If the website I posted is not the OFFICIAL SDA WEBSITE, please clear that up for us. Oh, that's right, you have been challenged again and again to deny that the the website and it's statement on abortion is not the church position. You ignore that over and over. Your church could condemn abortion (as the Catholic Church does) but refuses to do so and, in fact, claims it is the women's right to make that decision over what to do with her own body. Any church that refuses to condemn abortion and, in fact, operates many hospitals that happily perform them falls into the cult category. End of discussion.

 

[BobRyan]

Your OFFICIAL SDA WEBSITE makes it very clear what the SDA position on abortion is.

Clearly you rail on the issue - while showing no interest at all in the solution

It says that we condemn abortion on demand - and it does not say that anything that is RCC Supreme-Court Justice style "pro-abortion" is even remotely approved of by the SDA denomination voting in session..

Meanwhile -- we had this in an earlier post -

=======================================================================

Thankfully the Supreme court is dominated by Catholic justices so we don't have abortion on demand in America.. oh no wait!!

Thankfully the Supreme Court is dominated by Catholic justices so we don't have same-sex-marriage in America ... on no wait!

Sadly the "reason" that we have both of those issues in America is because of the fact that "the Supreme Court is dominated by Catholic justices" who then tip the scales in favor of those problems.

Which is not a matter of concern for Catholics devoted to railing on the issue while having no interest at all in the solution

Then to add to that Catholics who want "the issue but not the solution" will try to ignore that "elephant in the living room" as if "blaming others" will cause us to forget that "the Supreme Court is dominated by Catholic justices".

And so they will bring that off-topic point up on any thread they can.

IN this case Walter "Appears" to argue that any denomination with members that promote abortion is a cult. How sad that the "reason" that we have both abortion and same-sex marriage issues in America is because of the fact that "the Supreme Court is dominated by Catholic justices" and they tip the scales in favor of promoting those two issues.

I feel bad for Catholics and usually do not bring that up - but a few them love to be reminded of it - so... I guess it must be posted.

 

[BobRyan]

we know this -

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

And we know this --

Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.

32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

steaver said: ↑
Took you about two seconds for you to continue to quote YOU! You cannot change, bc you are stuck with EGW.

Here is the bottom line Bob, there are two choices. Tell me which one you choose...

A) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

B) For by forgiving your servant ye are saved, and that of yourselves, it is the law of God.

1. You see quote after quote of scripture and claim that my posting scripture is merely "quoting me"
2. I see your post complainging about what you read in Matthew 18 and then blaming the Matthew 18 text "on me" as if I quoted myself by posting it..

I think we can all see at least that "detail". Essentially you are arguing with Matthew 18 and "blaming it on me" because I dared to quote Matthew 18.

Where is the difficult part there?

steaver said: ↑
Apparently in you not being able to answer a question. Just because you post a bunch of scripture doesn't mean you are applying it correctly.

Of course you are free to differ and to point to any area where you feel the quote is not 'verbatim' - but we both know that quote "is verbatim"... you point to "no detail in the text" that is not correct - so you settle for vitriol "instead".

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"?

Why not come "back to the Bible" and have a Bible discussion "instead"???

steaver said: ↑
so what we need from you is a base line position on salvation and then we can go from there.

Here is the bottom line Bob, there are two choices. Tell me which one you choose...

A) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

As I said before... "that is the one".

And "being at war against Christ's teaching in Matthew 18 - is NOT the one".

you knew that .. right?

Wonderful! Since you chose "A", it would be YOU who is at war against Matt 18

Nope... it would be "me" that is actually quoting Matthew 18 -- while you avoid it.... again... again ... and again.

watch... again.


Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.

32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

in that you see "forgiveness revoked".

Where ?? where do I see "Forgiveness revoked"??

Here?

Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.

32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

(usually when I find a few texts that you "need" to avoid at all costs... you try to provide opportunity to have them quoted "again" around 20 times -- all the while blaming me for "seeing the text")

Not a very compelling solution Steaver.

 

[Yeshua1]

Hopefully we are not doing that - or breaking any other of God's Commandments

We break His commandments daily though, as Jesus showed to us in the Sermon on the Mount, and paul confirmed in Romans/Galatians, that NONE will ever be justified by keeping the law, as sinful flesh has no power to do that in the way God demands it to be kept!

 

[Yeshua1]

Are you making stuff up on the spot- or do you stop and think first??

Do ytou deny that Jesus built His true church back then, built upon Himself and the Apostles, not EW?

 

[BobRyan]

Yeshua1 said: ↑
We are no longer under the priesthood of Levitical priesthhoods, but under the One of Christ now, correct?

True. But that does not mean we can take God's name in vain

How are we doing that?

you claim you are

We break His commandments daily though,

Is this describing you?

Romans 8
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

OR is this you
Romans 8
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace


Which one do you claim is taking God's name in vain daily??

 

[BobRyan]

Do ytou deny that Jesus built His true church back then,

Why would I?

Are you about to "quote you again"??

 

[One Baptism]

I'll present you with the same question i asked Bob....

Here is the bottom line One, there are two choices. Tell me which one you choose...

A) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

B) For by forgiving your servant ye are saved, and that of yourselves, it is the law of God.

Once you answer this question we can look at your bible quotes and see if they line up with what you believe about A verses B.

I have already answered this, but I shall do so again, since the answer scripturally [KJB] is "A", but if you will please continue citing Ephesians 2, for it does not staop at verse 8, nor verse 9, but even includes verse 10:

"... Salvation, indeed, even justification, is by God's grace through faith, unearned.

Ephesians 2:8 KJB - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 KJB - Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:10 KJB - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
​

Faith unto good works, not for salvation, but the good works are in salvation, after belief, revealing its actual occurence/transaction. Look at the order of progression in the thought, from its origin to its finality.

A pardoned criminal, with record cleared, having thus been paid in full, is set at liberty once more, not to commit that which was done in the past, which made them criminal, but now unto a new citizen, with differing [good, not criminal] works. A criminal still on death row, who has not received pardon, it would not matter what works were done, for the works cannot pay the death penalty, even if done into infinity, the penalty was death, not works. ..." - Practical Antinomians?
​

... to be continued ...

​

 

[One Baptism]

I'll present you with the same question i asked Bob....

Here is the bottom line One, there are two choices. Tell me which one you choose...

A) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

B) For by forgiving your servant ye are saved, and that of yourselves, it is the law of God.

Once you answer this question we can look at your bible quotes and see if they line up with what you believe about A verses B.

... continued ...

Walter Martin points out that the Adventist denomination is not a cult. Continued

This was further expounded upon here, and detailed where and when the "good works" come in:

"..."in" salvation. I have said this on numerous (I lost count) occasions. Not "toward" salvation. In fact, before salvation, there is no "good works", it is as filthy rags, it is nothing but debt, never the relieving of debt, and afterward it is His good works, being worked out in us.

That which parallels Ephesians 2:8-10 KJB, is 2 Timothy 3:14-17 KJB:

2 Timothy 3:14 KJB - But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

2 Timothy 3:15 KJB - And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 3:16 KJB - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 3:17 KJB - That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
​

Salvation, is that which is being bought and brought [see Leviticus 25 KJB, in type] back into the perfect will of God [His Ten Commandments]. As James says, the [good, living] works are not the root, but the fruit born of the root of real faith:

Luke 8:15 KJB - But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
​

Notice:

James 2:14 KJB - What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:15 KJB - If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

James 2:16 KJB - And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

James 2:17 KJB - Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:18 KJB - Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:19 KJB - Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

James 2:20 KJB - But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:21 KJB - Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:22 KJB - Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

James 2:23 KJB - And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

James 2:24 KJB - Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:25 KJB - Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

James 2:26 KJB - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
​

How did Abraham believe God? Mere mental ascent? No, it was through actual demonstration of the living faith, in the good work by offering Isaac in reality, requested by the commandment of God, thus was obedience and true worship in spirit and in truth. Or one might say in heart and deed.

Hebrews 6:1 KJB, makes the distinction from "dead works", and thus its contrast in Christ, of living works.

Christ Jesus has given us something to "keep" through living faith [not "dead", again not for, not towards, but] "in" salvation:

Revelation 12:17 KJB And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1 John 2:3 KJB - And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

John 14:15 KJB - If ye love me, keep my commandments. [see Exodus 20:6 KJB]

John 14:23 KJB - Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

John 15:10 KJB - If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
​

etc., etc.

A man which does not, through faith, keep the commandments of God [Exodus 20:1-17 KJB], did they really have saving faith? No. They had doubt:

Romans 14:23 KJB - "... or whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

1 John 3:4 KJB - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 6:23 KJB - "For the wages of sin is death; ..."
​

Notice, the "faith of Jesus":

Revelation 14:12 KJB - Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
​

That text does not say "faith in Jesus", but rather the more powerful "faith of Jesus", which allowed Him to walk in the fallen sinful flesh of mankind, as we have now, and not sin. He gave us that example, for He is both substitute and example. ..." - Practical Antinomians?​