Walter Martin points out that the Adventist denomination is not a cult. Continued

[Walter]

Some of them .. maybe ... but none of them Popes.. none can dictate doctrine or morals the way we have the church set up. Administrators without the full vote of the delegates... limited scope. And certainly not any of them bought into your abortion-on-demand laws passed for Americans by your RC Supreme Court justices

The SDA refuses to condemn abortion. In fact, your SDA website makes it clear that it is a women's right to choose. The Catholic Church has condemned abortion. Any person who claims to be Catholic and supports abortion is excommunicated and no longer Catholic. Judges, politicians, etc. You can continue to call the judges that sat on the bench Catholic but the Church makes it clear they are not speaking for the Catholic Church.

Every single human being has unsurpassable worth and unsurpassable value. Is that the message that Adventists send to the world when they choose to perform abortions in Adventist institutions? Are they saying that that human being has unsurpassable worth, unsurpassable value, and that they love this human being more than they love themselves? Is that the message that the SDA is sending to the world on it's official website? 'The final decision whether to terminate the pregnancy or not should be made by the pregnant woman after appropriate consultation'. Is the SDA being Jesus to the world by being in the abortion business? Are you expressing his love, his unfathomable love for every being? Is the SDA sending the message that this being has unsurpassable worth and unsurpassable value? Because that's what Jesus was proclaiming when he hung up on the cross that he loved every single human being and that every single human being has unsurpassable worth and unsurpassable value. Yep, the SDA falls into the 'cult' category by it's position on abortion alone.

 

[One Baptism]

You NO scripture to back up that 1844 date...

I gave you those scriptures, but here is a few more. Look again, please:

Daniel 7:9-10,22,25, 8:13,14,26, 9:24-27, 11:31-35,40, 12:7-13; Leviticus 16:1-34, 23:23-32 [1 Corinthians 5:8 KJB, antitype, not type]; Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6; Ezra 6:14, 7:7-28; Revelation 5:6, 9:13-15, 10:1-11, 11:1-3, 12:6,14, 13:5 KJB, etc.

Daniel 7:1-16; --- Daniel and symbols of Vision

Daniel 7:17-18; --- Gabriel and summarized explanation of Vision​

Daniel 7:19-22; --- Daniel and sumbols of Visions, again

Daniel 7:23-28; --- Gabriel and more detailed explanation of Vision
​

Daniel 7:1-16

Daniel 7:1-3, --- Sea 4 beasts [overview],
Daniel 7:4, --- 1st Beast - the Lion - Babylon --- 605 BC to 538 BC
Daniel 7:5, --- 2nd Beast - the Bear - Medo-Persia --- 538/539 BC to 331 BC
Daniel 7:6, --- 3rd Beast - the Leopard - Greece [and divisions thereof] --- 331 BC to 168 BC
Daniel 7:7a, --- 4th Beast - the dreadul terrible [Dragon] - Pagan Rome --- 168 BC to AD 476
Daniel 7:7b, --- 4th Beast with 10 horns - the dreadful terrible [Dragon] divided - Pagn Rome divided --- AD 476 on
Daniel 7:8, --- 4th Beast with 10 horns, now with a new 11th [after wars uprooting 3 others, the 8th] horn - the new phase of Rome, Papal Rome [mouth speaking blasphemies, human eyes, little earthly kingdom, but large spiritual kingsom, etc] --- AD 508, 538 unto AD 1798 [received deadly wound, lost state powers, but remained a church]
Daniel 7:9-10, --- Transition to Heavenly setting sometime after AD 1798, Judgment goes forward, books of record opened in Heaven [this takes place in AD 1844, as per Daniel 8:13,14,26; Revelation 9:13-15 KJB, as cited aboveetc]
Daniel 7:11a, --- Transition back to earth, sometime after AD 1798, the Beast and little horn still active
Daniel 7:11b, --- the Beast at some point in future destroyed, along with the body, and also the horn
Daniel 7:12, --- The other beasts dominion was taken away, they had no power to rule on earth, this is during the 1,000 years, when the people of those nations are dead, for this season and time, to awaken after the 1,000 years to receive their final reward.
Daniel 7:13, --- Son of man, Jesus, comes to the Ancient of Days, the Father, in Heaven, with the angels, Jesus not only began the Day of Atonement in AD 1844, and has since been in this ministry in Heaven in the Most Holy Place [which is where he came to at that date, see Revelation 3:7-8, 9:13-15 KJB]
Daniel 7:14, --- Jesus takes off His Highpriestly garments, takes up His kingly garments [Revelation 1:1-20; Revelation 19:11-16 KJB]
​

Please notice the Chronological order, and the locations of events. The Judgment that goes forward in Daniel 7:9-10, is AFTER AD 1798, and BEFORE the second coming of Jesus. We know this further from Daniel 7:19-22, which repeats these events and timeframes.

Daniel 7:19a, --- mentions all three other beasts, thus Babyloin, Medo-Persia and Greece -- 605 BC to 168 BC
Daniel 7:19a, --- focuses on the 4th Beast - Pagan Rome, --- 168 BC to AD 476
Daniel 7:20a, --- focuses again on the 10 horns on the 4th Beast, Pagan Rome divided, --- AD 476
Daniel 7:20b, --- focuses again on the 11th, or little horn [which becomes the 8th, after uprooting 3 previous horns] and this is the Papal Rome, AD 508, 538 unto AD 1798 [see Daniel 7:25, 12:7,11-13 KJB]
Daniel 7:21, --- the little horns wars and persecutions for 1,260 days/years [Daniel 7:25, 12:7; Revelation 11:2-3, 12:6,14, 13:5 KJB]
Daniel 7:22a, --- "until", is the 1,260 timeframe, AD 538 unto AD 1798
Daniel 7:22b, --- "the Ancient of Days came", is the transition from the Holy Place [Revelation 4:1-5,5:6 KJB] unto the Most Holy Place [Revelation 3:7-8, 9:13-15 KJB], at the end of the 2,300 and 1,335, being 45 more years after the ending of the 1,260 and 1,290 in Daniel 12:12 KJB.
Daniel 7:22c, --- "and judgment was given unto the saints of the most High", is after the second coming of Jesus, during the 1,000 years in Heaven, see Revelation 20:4; 1 Corinthians 6:2-3 KJB
Daniel 7:22d, --- "and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom", is after the 1,000 years, they inherit the New Heavens and Earth after all the destruction of the wicked, see Revelation 20-22 KJB.
​

Please notice again the Chronological order, and the locations of events. The Judgment that goes forward in Daniel 7:22b, is AFTER all 3 beasts, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, after the Pagan Roman phase, and during the Papal phase, being after the Papal persecutions, the "unitl" AD 1798, and BEFORE the second coming of Jesus. This again synchronizes with Revelation 14:6-7 KJB, that the Judgment is taking place while the Everlasting Gospel is still being effective, before the close of propbation, when the Mystery of God would be finished, and before the Second coming, because this Judgment takes place before the Wrath of God, the 7 last plagues are poured out, and takes place during the test which comes upon all the world, Revelation 3:10, 17:12 KJB.​

 

[Yeshua1]

True.




You are merely "quoting you" again... you knew that right??

How is it you cannot see what you do?

EW claimed that the Sda was the restored true remnant church, as she interpreted Prophecy wrongly, do you deny her?

 

[Yeshua1]

I gave you those scriptures, but here is a few more. Look again, please:

Daniel 7:9-10,22,25, 8:13,14,26, 9:24-27, 11:31-35,40, 12:7-13; Leviticus 16:1-34, 23:23-32 [1 Corinthians 5:8 KJB, antitype, not type]; Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6; Ezra 6:14, 7:7-28; Revelation 5:6, 9:13-15, 10:1-11, 11:1-3, 12:6,14, 13:5 KJB, etc.

Daniel 7:1-16; --- Daniel and symbols of Vision

Daniel 7:17-18; --- Gabriel and summarized explanation of Vision​

Daniel 7:19-22; --- Daniel and sumbols of Visions, again

Daniel 7:23-28; --- Gabriel and more detailed explanation of Vision
​

Daniel 7:1-16

Daniel 7:1-3, --- Sea 4 beasts [overview],
Daniel 7:4, --- 1st Beast - the Lion - Babylon --- 605 BC to 538 BC
Daniel 7:5, --- 2nd Beast - the Bear - Medo-Persia --- 538/539 BC to 331 BC
Daniel 7:6, --- 3rd Beast - the Leopard - Greece [and divisions thereof] --- 331 BC to 168 BC
Daniel 7:7a, --- 4th Beast - the dreadul terrible [Dragon] - Pagan Rome --- 168 BC to AD 476
Daniel 7:7b, --- 4th Beast with 10 horns - the dreadful terrible [Dragon] divided - Pagn Rome divided --- AD 476 on
Daniel 7:8, --- 4th Beast with 10 horns, now with a new 11th [after wars uprooting 3 others, the 8th] horn - the new phase of Rome, Papal Rome [mouth speaking blasphemies, human eyes, little earthly kingdom, but large spiritual kingsom, etc] --- AD 508, 538 unto AD 1798 [received deadly wound, lost state powers, but remained a church]
Daniel 7:9-10, --- Transition to Heavenly setting sometime after AD 1798, Judgment goes forward, books of record opened in Heaven [this takes place in AD 1844, as per Daniel 8:13,14,26; Revelation 9:13-15 KJB, as cited aboveetc]
Daniel 7:11a, --- Transition back to earth, sometime after AD 1798, the Beast and little horn still active
Daniel 7:11b, --- the Beast at some point in future destroyed, along with the body, and also the horn
Daniel 7:12, --- The other beasts dominion was taken away, they had no power to rule on earth, this is during the 1,000 years, when the people of those nations are dead, for this season and time, to awaken after the 1,000 years to receive their final reward.
Daniel 7:13, --- Son of man, Jesus, comes to the Ancient of Days, the Father, in Heaven, with the angels, Jesus not only began the Day of Atonement in AD 1844, and has since been in this ministry in Heaven in the Most Holy Place [which is where he came to at that date, see Revelation 3:7-8, 9:13-15 KJB]
Daniel 7:14, --- Jesus takes off His Highpriestly garments, takes up His kingly garments [Revelation 1:1-20; Revelation 19:11-16 KJB]
​

Please notice the Chronological order, and the locations of events. The Judgment that goes forward in Daniel 7:9-10, is AFTER AD 1798, and BEFORE the second coming of Jesus. We know this further from Daniel 7:19-22, which repeats these events and timeframes.

Daniel 7:19a, --- mentions all three other beasts, thus Babyloin, Medo-Persia and Greece -- 605 BC to 168 BC
Daniel 7:19a, --- focuses on the 4th Beast - Pagan Rome, --- 168 BC to AD 476
Daniel 7:20a, --- focuses again on the 10 horns on the 4th Beast, Pagan Rome divided, --- AD 476
Daniel 7:20b, --- focuses again on the 11th, or little horn [which becomes the 8th, after uprooting 3 previous horns] and this is the Papal Rome, AD 508, 538 unto AD 1798 [see Daniel 7:25, 12:7,11-13 KJB]
Daniel 7:21, --- the little horns wars and persecutions for 1,260 days/years [Daniel 7:25, 12:7; Revelation 11:2-3, 12:6,14, 13:5 KJB]
Daniel 7:22a, --- "until", is the 1,260 timeframe, AD 538 unto AD 1798
Daniel 7:22b, --- "the Ancient of Days came", is the transition from the Holy Place [Revelation 4:1-5,5:6 KJB] unto the Most Holy Place [Revelation 3:7-8, 9:13-15 KJB], at the end of the 2,300 and 1,335, being 45 more years after the ending of the 1,260 and 1,290 in Daniel 12:12 KJB.
Daniel 7:22c, --- "and judgment was given unto the saints of the most High", is after the second coming of Jesus, during the 1,000 years in Heaven, see Revelation 20:4; 1 Corinthians 6:2-3 KJB
Daniel 7:22d, --- "and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom", is after the 1,000 years, they inherit the New Heavens and Earth after all the destruction of the wicked, see Revelation 20-22 KJB.
​

Please notice again the Chronological order, and the locations of events. The Judgment that goes forward in Daniel 7:22b, is AFTER all 3 beasts, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, after the Pagan Roman phase, and during the Papal phase, being after the Papal persecutions, the "unitl" AD 1798, and BEFORE the second coming of Jesus. This again synchronizes with Revelation 14:6-7 KJB, that the Judgment is taking place while the Everlasting Gospel is still being effective, before the close of propbation, when the Mystery of God would be finished, and before the Second coming, because this Judgment takes place before the Wrath of God, the 7 last plagues are poured out, and takes place during the test which comes upon all the world, Revelation 3:10, 17:12 KJB.​

Much of the problem here is that the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation have YET to occur, have never happened yet, so the time after ancient Rome was not as EW defined it as being, as there is yet a final Antichrist still to come,and there is a coming world order yet to come, as Middle Ages were not in the prophecies!

 

[Yeshua1]

Walking in the Spirit:

Romans 8:4 KJB - That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Galatians 5:16 KJB - This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 5:25 KJB - If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.​

Look at the context of these verses. Walking in the spirit, it is then that "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us.", and therefore, "no fulfill the lust of the flesh." It is not the other way 'round. Therefore, in walking in the Spirit. we understand the nature and depth of the spiritual commandments of God, and so keep the 7th Day the Sabbath, in love to God, for what was done in/through Christ Jesus, and so we understand that the Sabbath is both a matter of 'purpose' in God's will, and 'relationship' to God and one another. in the day itself, we recognize that our bodies are the Temple of God, even the Holy Spirit, and thus, since it is God who hath created us, He hath designed the entire system of the body to work 6 days and to rest the 7th with Him, and one another. To break this deisned cycle, is to break down the body, and thus bring about a slow self-murder. If we disregard this, we idolized time, and chose our own, over that which God chose, and so on.

Think about a vehicle, such as a car or truck. It was specifically built by a designer, a creator, a manufacturer. It came with instructions on how to keep the vehicle in pristine and good running condition. To make the car run, it needs the proper fuel, gasoline, in the proper place, and in the proper amount. It has a gas tank. What if instead, I were to not use gasoline, but instead sugar, but poured in a full tank of sugar into the gas tank? Will the vehicle function? No. What if I used the proper fuel, gasoline, but the wrong location, and instead poured a full tank of gasoline into the back seat/compartment of the vehicle? Will it run? No, now it is a deadly mixture. This goes the same for God's Sabbath, thus it is called "the Sabbath of th LORD". The specific day, the 7th Day. It, of all the days of the week, is the only Holy one, the only sanctified one.

The same example may be used for food/diet. Our bodies were created, in Genesis 1, to eat and subsist upon specific things - fruits, seed/nuts, certain vegetation. This has not changed, though there have been certain circumstances of emergency which were needed as a temporary means to live, thus the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, etc. If a person, who fills their body with that which is "not good for food", what difference is there in what they do, and what Eve and Adam did?

You are still trying to live under the Old Covenant, to get right and remain right with God by Keeping law, and Paul tells us those who try to do such a thing have now fallen from Grace, as grace alone saves, keeps, and matures us, as outworked by faith!

 

[One Baptism]

You NO scripture to back up that 1844 date...

As shown from Daniel 7, we can see the same in Daniel 8:

Daniel 8:13,14,26, 11:31,40, etc reveal this same pattern.

Daniel 8:1-14, --- Daniel and symbols of Vision

Daniel 8:15-27, --- Gabriel and explanation of Vision [in part, it was not completed, see vs 27, continue in Daniel 9:21-27 KJB]
​

Daniel 8:1-2, --- Introduction of Vision
Daniel 8:3, --- 1st [clean] Beast - Ram with two horns, one higher than other - Medo-Persia --- 538 BC to 331 BC
Daniel 8:4, -- conquests of 1st Beast - Ram, being 3 directions [just as 3 ribs in Bears mouth], conquering [1] Lydia [King Croesus], [2] Babylon [Belshazzar, etc] and finally [later through Cambyses II, aka, Ahasuerus of Ezra 4:6 KJB, son of Cyrus II the Great] [3] Egypt
Daniel 8:5, --- 2nd [clean] Beast - He-Goat with Notable Horn - Greece under Alexander III the Great --- 331 BC unto Alexander's death in 323 BC [in Babylon]
Daniel 8:6-8a, -- conquests of 2nd Beast - He-Goat, conquered from the western direction, conquering Medo-Persia, Egypt, Babylon, etc.
Daniel 8:8b, -- Alexander III the great dies, and the Diadochi wars take pleace, eventually whittled to 4 main - [1] Selecus [Nothern, Coele-Syria]/Antiohcus dynasty, [2] Ptolemy [Egypt] dynasty, [3] Cassander, [4] Lysimachus [and in Daniel 11, the parallel of Daniel 8, it eventually whittles to 2, the Northern and Southern powers], this is from 323 BC unto 168 BC, when Rome becomes the next power on the scene, as in Daniel 7, 168 BC.
Daniel 8:9, --- a new power, Pagan Rome, is on the scene from one of the four winds/directions, came from the West, and conquers in three directions, south [Egypt], east [Creece, Cole-Syria, etc] and the pleasant land [Judea, etc] 168 BC onward
Daniel 8:10, --- Pagan Rome persecutions up till the times of Constantine, AD 313, after the 10 day/years of Revelation 2:10 KJB, AD 303 to AD 313 [Diocletian, Galerius, etc].
Daniel 8:11, --- Papal Rome comes to focus, AD 508, 538, and it usurps by laws the prergatives of Jesus Christ, and now enforced by civil statutes of Justinian, Church/State combine with teeth
Daniel 8:12, --- Papal Rome enters into the 1,260 year period, [AD 538 unto AD 1798, the 1,290 from AD 508 unto AD 1798, the 1,335 from AD 508 unto AD 1843/44]
Daniel 8:13,14,26, --- The Sanctuary of Heaven to be cleansed, the anti-typical Day of Atonement has arrived, AD 1844, until today [thus the beasts of Ram, He-Goat, 8 horns of sanctuary, High priest [Jesus, the Prince of the Host], cleansed, covering cherub - Gabriel, etc ... see Leviticus 16 and 23]
​

The question, "How long the vision ...?" [concerning 'the daily'], etc.

The vision of Daniel 8 begins with Medo-Persia, so sometime in the reign of Medo-Persia we begin counting 2,300, until the sanctaury is cleasned, and it must cover from that start in Medo-Persia, through Greece, through Pagan Rome, through its persecutions, into Papal Rome, through its persecutions, and sometime after the Papal Rome loses its state powers, we find this Judgment and Cleansing of the Sanctuary go forward, which takes place before Jesus comes. We find the start of the 2,300 in Daniel 9:24-27; Ezra 6:14, 7:7-28, etc, and we find its ending [along with the 1,335] after the 70 weeks, after the 1,260, 1,290 [which are simply subsections of the 2,300] in Revelation 9:13-15 KJB. We see the explanation of the vision here:​

Daniel 8:20, --- Medo-Persia --- 538 BC to 331 BC
Daniel 8:21, --- Greece under Alexander III the Great --- 331 BC unto Alexander's death, 323 BC
Daniel 8:22, --- Greece divided, 323 BC unto 168 BC; four main [Seleucus, Ptolemy, Cassander, Lysimachus dynasties]
Daniel 8:23a, --- Pagan Rome, --- AD 168 onwards, the king of fierce countenance [state power], see also Deuteornomy 28:48-57, and destruction of Jerusalem
Daniel 8:23b, --- Papal Rome, the king ... understanding dark sentences [parables, religion power], AD 508
Daniel 8:24a, --- Papal Rome was given power by Pagan Rome, the seat of the Emperor in the west, Rome, see Revelation 12 and 13:1-2 KJB.
Daniel 8:24b-25, --- Papal Rome persecutions through "peace" [false Gospel], the 1,260, etc AD 538 unto AD 1798
Daniel 8:26, --- the many days, are the 2,300 of Daniel 8:13,14 KJB, which begin in Medo-Persia [457 BC; Ezra 7, Daniel 9:25; Ezra 6:14], extending all the way down past Papal Rome persecutions, past AD 1798
Daniel 8:27, --- the vision not full explained, but in Daniel 9-12, the details of Daniel 8 are given again, in full unto their ending.
​

Daniel 8, follows the sanctuary pattern, leading from the daily service, unto the singular yearly service, the Day of Atonement. Jesus is following the pattern, Psalms 77:13 KJB, and fulfilling the feasts in the proper order and timing, all of this comes long after, Passover, Unelavened, Wavesheaf, Penetecost, and even after Trumpets.

2,300 greatest and longest time prophecy in scripture.

457 BC [begins the 2,300, the first portion being the 70 weeks; Daniel 9:25; Ezra 6:14, 7:7-28]
457 BC unto AD 27 [baptism of Jesus in water and Spirit, is 69 weeks]
AD 27 unto AD 31 [ministry of Jesus, confirming the covenant Himself for 3 1/2 years, midst of final week [70th week] Jesus dies]
AD 31 unto AD 34 [the disciples, Hebrews 2:3 KJB [Jesus confirms through the disciples], filled with the holy spirit, do the same things as Jesus, for 3 1/2 years, ending with the stoning of Stephen and rejection by the Sanhedrin, type and anty-type, pattern matches exactly, Jesus is seen standing, probation, 70 x 7 [490 years] is up [see Matthew 18:22 KJB]]
AD 34 unto AD 1844, fulfills the remaining 1810 years, from the 490, which equal 2,300.

Thus in Revelation 9:13-15, we see the Heavenly golden Altar, the 4 horns, as used in the Day of Atonement, combined with a spcfiic "hour", "day", "month" and "year":

Hour - Hour of His Judgment is come, Revelation 14:6-7; Daniel 7:22, etc.
Day - Day of Atonement, the 10th Day [22nd Gregorian Calendar], Leviticus 16:1-34, 23:26-32 KJB
Month - 7th Month [Ethanim; 1 Kings 8:2 KJB] [October, Gregorian Claendar]; Leviticus 16:1-34, 23:26-32 KJB
Year - AD 1844, end of the 2,300 and 1335 of Daniel 8:13,14,26, 12:12 KJB.
​

Even as Jesus fulfilled the Passover at a specific time:

Hour - Morning Sacrifice, Jesus Crucified, approx 9 AM, Evening Sacrifce Jesus dies, approx 3 PM
Day - 14th Day of the 1st Month [Bible Calendar], the preparation Day [the 6th day of the week, aka 'Friday']
Month - 1st Month, Abib; Leviticus 23:4-8 KJB
Year - AD 31, the middle of the 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27, exactly 3 1/2 years after AD 27 [baptism]
​

Jesus knew the "time" ...​

 

[Yeshua1]

As shown from Daniel 7, we can see the same in Daniel 8:

Daniel 8:13,14,26, 11:31,40, etc reveal this same pattern.

Daniel 8:1-14, --- Daniel and symbols of Vision

Daniel 8:15-27, --- Gabriel and explanation of Vision [in part, it was not completed, see vs 27, continue in Daniel 9:21-27 KJB]
​

Daniel 8:1-2, --- Introduction of Vision
Daniel 8:3, --- 1st [clean] Beast - Ram with two horns, one higher than other - Medo-Persia --- 538 BC to 331 BC
Daniel 8:4, -- conquests of 1st Beast - Ram, being 3 directions [just as 3 ribs in Bears mouth], conquering [1] Lydia [King Croesus], [2] Babylon [Belshazzar, etc] and finally [later through Cambyses II, aka, Ahasuerus of Ezra 4:6 KJB, son of Cyrus II the Great] [3] Egypt
Daniel 8:5, --- 2nd [clean] Beast - He-Goat with Notable Horn - Greece under Alexander III the Great --- 331 BC unto Alexander's death in 323 BC [in Babylon]
Daniel 8:6-8a, -- conquests of 2nd Beast - He-Goat, conquered from the western direction, conquering Medo-Persia, Egypt, Babylon, etc.
Daniel 8:8b, -- Alexander III the great dies, and the Diadochi wars take pleace, eventually whittled to 4 main - [1] Selecus [Nothern, Coele-Syria]/Antiohcus dynasty, [2] Ptolemy [Egypt] dynasty, [3] Cassander, [4] Lysimachus [and in Daniel 11, the parallel of Daniel 8, it eventually whittles to 2, the Northern and Southern powers], this is from 323 BC unto 168 BC, when Rome becomes the next power on the scene, as in Daniel 7, 168 BC.
Daniel 8:9, --- a new power, Pagan Rome, is on the scene from one of the four winds/directions, came from the West, and conquers in three directions, south [Egypt], east [Creece, Cole-Syria, etc] and the pleasant land [Judea, etc] 168 BC onward
Daniel 8:10, --- Pagan Rome persecutions up till the times of Constantine, AD 313, after the 10 day/years of Revelation 2:10 KJB, AD 303 to AD 313 [Diocletian, Galerius, etc].
Daniel 8:11, --- Papal Rome comes to focus, AD 508, 538, and it usurps by laws the prergatives of Jesus Christ, and now enforced by civil statutes of Justinian, Church/State combine with teeth
Daniel 8:12, --- Papal Rome enters into the 1,260 year period, [AD 538 unto AD 1798, the 1,290 from AD 508 unto AD 1798, the 1,335 from AD 508 unto AD 1843/44]
Daniel 8:13,14,26, --- The Sanctuary of Heaven to be cleansed, the anti-typical Day of Atonement has arrived, AD 1844, until today [thus the beasts of Ram, He-Goat, 8 horns of sanctuary, High priest [Jesus, the Prince of the Host], cleansed, covering cherub - Gabriel, etc ... see Leviticus 16 and 23]​

The question, "How long the vision ...?" [concerning 'the daily'], etc.

The vision of Daniel 8 begins with Medo-Persia, so sometime in the reign of Medo-Persia we begin counting 2,300, until the sanctaury is cleasned, and it must cover from that start in Medo-Persia, through Greece, through Pagan Rome, through its persecutions, into Papal Rome, through its persecutions, and sometime after the Papal Rome loses its state powers, we find this Judgment and Cleansing of the Sanctuary go forward, which takes place before Jesus comes. We find the start of the 2,300 in Daniel 9:24-27; Ezra 6:14, 7:7-28, etc, and we find its ending [along with the 1,335] after the 70 weeks, after the 1,260, 1,290 [which are simply subsections of the 2,300] in Revelation 9:13-15 KJB. We see the explanation of the vision here:​

Daniel 8:20, --- Medo-Persia --- 538 BC to 331 BC
Daniel 8:21, --- Greece under Alexander III the Great --- 331 BC unto Alexander's death, 323 BC
Daniel 8:22, --- Greece divided, 323 BC unto 168 BC; four main [Seleucus, Ptolemy, Cassander, Lysimachus dynasties]
Daniel 8:23a, --- Pagan Rome, --- AD 168 onwards, the king of fierce countenance [state power], see also Deuteornomy 28:48-57, and destruction of Jerusalem
Daniel 8:23b, --- Papal Rome, the king ... understanding dark sentences [parables, religion power], AD 508
Daniel 8:24a, --- Papal Rome was given power by Pagan Rome, the seat of the Emperor in the west, Rome, see Revelation 12 and 13:1-2 KJB.
Daniel 8:24b-25, --- Papal Rome persecutions through "peace" [false Gospel], the 1,260, etc AD 538 unto AD 1798
Daniel 8:26, --- the many days, are the 2,300 of Daniel 8:13,14 KJB, which begin in Medo-Persia [457 BC; Ezra 7, Daniel 9:25; Ezra 6:14], extending all the way down past Papal Rome persecutions, past AD 1798
Daniel 8:27, --- the vision not full explained, but in Daniel 9-12, the details of Daniel 8 are given again, in full unto their ending.
​

Daniel 8, follows the sanctuary pattern, leading from the daily service, unto the singular yearly service, the Day of Atonement. Jesus is following the pattern, Psalms 77:13 KJB, and fulfilling the feasts in the proper order and timing, all of this comes long after, Passover, Unelavened, Wavesheaf, Penetecost, and even after Trumpets.

2,300 greatest and longest time prophecy in scripture.

457 BC [begins the 2,300, the first portion being the 70 weeks; Daniel 9:25; Ezra 6:14, 7:7-28]
457 BC unto AD 27 [baptism of Jesus in water and Spirit, is 69 weeks]
AD 27 unto AD 31 [ministry of Jesus, confirming the covenant Himself for 3 1/2 years, midst of final week [70th week] Jesus dies]
AD 31 unto AD 34 [the disciples, Hebrews 2:3 KJB [Jesus confirms through the disciples], filled with the holy spirit, do the same things as Jesus, for 3 1/2 years, ending with the stoning of Stephen and rejection by the Sanhedrin, type and anty-type, pattern matches exactly, Jesus is seen standing, probation, 70 x 7 [490 years] is up [see Matthew 18:22 KJB]]
AD 34 unto AD 1844, fulfills the remaining 1810 years, from the 490, which equal 2,300.

Thus in Revelation 9:13-15, we see the Heavenly golden Altar, the 4 horns, as used in the Day of Atonement, combined with a spcfiic "hour", "day", "month" and "year":

Hour - Hour of His Judgment is come, Revelation 14:6-7; Daniel 7:22, etc.
Day - Day of Atonement, the 10th Day [22nd Gregorian Calendar], Leviticus 16:1-34, 23:26-32 KJB
Month - 7th Month [Ethanim; 1 Kings 8:2 KJB] [October, Gregorian Claendar]; Leviticus 16:1-34, 23:26-32 KJB
Year - AD 1844, end of the 2,300 and 1335 of Daniel 8:13,14,26, 12:12 KJB.
​

Even as Jesus fulfilled the Passover at a specific time:

Hour - Morning Sacrifice, Jesus Crucified, approx 9 AM, Evening Sacrifce Jesus dies, approx 3 PM
Day - 14th Day of the 1st Month [Bible Calendar], the preparation Day [the 6th day of the week, aka 'Friday']
Month - 1st Month, Abib; Leviticus 23:4-8 KJB
Year - AD 31, the middle of the 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27, exactly 3 1/2 years after AD 27 [baptism]
​

Jesus knew the "time" ...​

Middle Ages were not in the view of prophecy, as after First century, next main events in scripture were to be rise of Antichrist and return of Christ at end of days!

 

[BobRyan]

EW claimed that the Sda was the restored true remnant church, as she interpreted Prophecy wrongly, do you deny her?

I assume you are "trying" to quote something.

Is it possible that when you accuse someone you could prompt yourself to use actual facts?

I assume your efforts at "creative writing" have you trying to get Ellen White to oppose her own writing in AA 11.2 to serve some personal preference that you have... am I right?

From the beginning, faithful souls have constituted the church on earth. In every age the Lord has had His watchmen, who have borne a faithful testimony to the generation in which they lived. These sentinels gave the message of warning; and when they were called to lay off their armor, others took up the work. God brought these witnesses into covenant relation with Himself, uniting the church on earth with the church in heaven. He has sent forth His angels to minister to His church, and the gates of hell have not been able to prevail against His people. {AA 11.2}

 

[BobRyan]

Much of the problem here is that the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation have YET to occur, have never happened yet, !

Sadly you are still making stuff up... Now you go even to the point of claiming that the dark ages of Daniel 7 and the first coming of Christ in Daniel 9... "have never happened yet"... is there an end to that sort of creative writing?

 

[BobRyan]

Middle Ages were not in the view of prophecy,

Until you read the actual Bible in places like Matthew 24, Daniel 7, Revelation 11 - all of which predict the long period of 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the saints just like Daniel 9 predicts the 490 year span of time pointing to the ministry of Christ 2000 years ago.

Bible details matter.

Making stuff up, and creative writing... not so much

 

[BobRyan]

Some of them .. maybe ... but none of them Popes.. none can dictate doctrine or morals the way we have the church set up. Administrators without the full vote of the delegates... limited scope. And certainly not any of them bought into your abortion-on-demand laws passed for Americans by your RC Supreme Court justices

The SDA refuses to condemn abortion.

Fact is that I have condemned it and you failed to find a single place where the SDA denomination voted in favor of your own RCC supreme court justice's demand for "abortion on demand". You could not find a single statement buying into your own abortion-on-demand laws passed for Americans by your RC Supreme Court justices who dominate the U.S Supreme Court and tip the balance in favor of "abortion on demand".

And we both know it.


" Every single human being has unsurpassable worth and unsurpassable value." That tiny group of SDA administrators get that right.. What they did not get was approval from the world church of Seventh-day Adventists for the RC Supreme Court Justice style "abortion on demand" laws.

That is true.

Not quite the "Abortion on demand" law that your own RC supreme court justices demand be the "LAW of the Land".. and we both know it.

 

[BobRyan]

You double speak and do not even realize it. Is it through standing by faith or is it through failing to forgive another as you keep pointing to Matt 18?

Does your personal war against Matthew 18 and Romans 11 -- have some sort of end to it?

we know this -

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

And we know this --

Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.

32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”


1. You see quote after quote of scripture and claim that my posting the Matthew 18 scripture is merely "quoting me"
2. I see your post complaining about what you read in Matthew 18 and then blaming the Matthew 18 text "on me" as if I quoted myself by posting it..
.

That post ends with --


1. You see quote after quote of scripture and claim that my posting the Matthew 18 scripture is merely "quoting me"
2. I see your post complaining about what you read in Matthew 18 and then blaming the Matthew 18 text "on me" as if I quoted myself by posting it..

Apparently you are trying out that sort of game on someone else as well.

How "instructive - for the unbiased object Bible student

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 1 AM Eastern (I'm visiting the grand-kids).

 

[James Donovan]

I claim to be a New Covenant Christian.. do you?

Jeremiah 31
31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Romans 2
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.



============================================
Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.

32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Indeed -- Christ shows us the "fully forgiven" about whom it is said "I forgave you ALL" and yet due to subsequent actions of the "fully forgiven" -- they experience forgiveness revoked. until he should pay all that was due

Question for the reader -- In your POV is there such a thing as "Salvation where you pay your own debt of sin" -- having been "forgiven all" he then had to "repay all".. OR is Christ simply mistaken in your POV?

OSAS does not survive the sola-scriptura test in Matthew 18 nor in Romans 11 nor in Ezekiel 18 (nor even Matthew 6)

From what I read here our SDA friend sounds like a typical Bible reader making matters of kingdom entrance and position to mean eternal salvation ( which he thinks can be lost ). Forgiveness of sins usually tied to repentance in the NT is not the same as eternal salvation. I could probably spend hours on how he is mixing Israel and the church but not worth it. What exactly is the gospel message of the SDA? Maybe Bob will tell us.

 

[BobRyan]

From what I read here our SDA friend sounds like a typical Bible reader

Certainly that part is true.

making matters of kingdom entrance and position to mean eternal salvation ( which he thinks can be lost ).

From what I am reading of your statement above - you have imagined to yourself that saved saints are expelled from the kingdom of God -- as if that is "saved". "Outside the kingdom" weeping wailing and sorcerers...??

Forgiveness of sins usually tied to repentance in the NT is not the same as eternal salvation.

So then you have imagined either
1. Forgiven lost people
2. Unforgiven saints who pay all their own debt of sin.

Which works for creative writing - but does not stand the test of scripture.

I could probably spend hours on how he is mixing Israel and the church but not worth it. What exactly is the gospel message of the SDA? Maybe Bob will tell us.

In the actual Bible no such thing a as a saved saint that "pays his own debt of sin"
In the actual Bible no such thing as a "saved saint expelled from the kingdom of God"
In the actual Bible Matthew 18 is true. So also Romans 11

we know this - these are "Warning messages" given to those who ARE forgiven and ARE standing by faith

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

And we know this --

Matthew 18 is specifically about forgiveness revoked.

32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed.

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 1 AM Eastern (I'm visiting the grand-kids).