Walter Martin's "Kingdom of the Cults" declares Adventist are not a Cult and destroys Hoekema's book

[Bro. James]

If keeping a set of rules saves, we have a problem: nobody can keep them all. This is salvation by works We are not saved by works. See Ephesians 2:8-10.

There is no scripture which tells us which day(s) to worship. There is some scripture which alludes to meeting daily--many times under duress. A lot of what is practiced today is pure tradition of unregenerated men/women and without biblical basis.

One of the major issues at Nicea was then to celebrate Easter--a pagan holyday. Very interesting. There some out here who do not bow to so-called church councils. Check out council of Trent. It is still in effect. Now what? This is Christian?

Walter Martin also leaves out Catholicism as a cult--this one is the largest since Nimrod. They are still in control in large areas of the world. They are called Christian--some say mother of harlots. It cannot be both.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[BobRyan]

I am only discussing tjis one single issue. Ypu refuse to answer the wuestion directly. Ill try again. If you believe one is to worship on sat and refuse to will ypu go to hell. Saying it is a salvation issue is not a direct answer

And I keep saying it is not a salvation issue for the one that does not know they are doing wrong.

My response to that was James 4:17
17 "Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin." James4:17

My job is not to write or delete the Bible - just to read and accept it. That does not make me the author of it.


and I gave perfect illustrations of the point as follows.

===============

he states essentially what we find in James 4 "to the one that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin" in that case "willful sin".

So if a person says "I know that the Bible teaches that it is a sin to break the Ten Commandments and I know that the Bible Sabbath is one of them.. and that it is not Sunday - The bible says what I am doing is sin - but I don't care what God's Word says - I find it inconvenient to follow what the bible teaches ..." -- then that becomes a salvation issue for the one that goes to such an extreme. Which would be true no matter what we were talking about.

If I were to say "I know that not bowing down to images is what the Bible commands in the Ten Commandments - and that violating that is sin in the eyes of God -- but it is the tradition I have grown up with and I really don't care that the Bible condemns it - I will do it anyway"... well that has become a salvation issue for the one who goes to such an extreme.

I am fairly certain that most Sunday keeping Christians on this board will argue that they have not gone to any such extreme.

====================================================================

Your question as restated above appears to ask if I believe in OSAS - I do not.

So if you become saved then pick up the habit of taking God's name in vain and arguing the atheist point of "I don't care what the Bible says - I do as I please"... you have a problem.

So if you become saved then become convicted that your practice of bowing down before images in church and promising to serve those they represent - is going directly against a Commandment of God -- But then start arguing the atheist point of "I don't care what the Bible says - I do as I please"... you have a problem.

Your point is either that none of this should be a real problem because you believe OSAS or your point is that these are all legitimate problems with violating one of God's Ten Commandments - but violating God's 4th commandment does not fit into the category in your thinking - of violating one of God's Ten Commandments.

What exactly is your point?

Perhaps if you read section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" you can see my point more clearly.

 

[BobRyan]

If keeping a set of rules saves, we have a problem: nobody can keep them all. This is salvation by works

Which is why we don't say to the lost "just start being good by not taking God's name in vain anymore -- then you will be able to earn your way to heaven and don't need the Gospel to save you".

As we all know.

But at the same time -- that is not an argument that saved saints SHOULD start taking God's name in vain.

Again... stating the obvious -- but a point to keep in mind all the same.

And since the Bible condemns the OSAS false doctrine - in places like 1Cor 9, Romans 11, Matthew 18 etc - if some saved saint starts engaging in the sin of taking God's name in vain -- and refuses to be corrected by the Word of God - -they will end up in hell all the same.

As James 2 points out - rebellion has nothing to do with which commandment is being opposed "as if" one would be fine while another one well-that-is-the-one-that-counts.

 

[BobRyan]

There is no scripture which tells us which day(s) to worship.

1. "The seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD" Ex 20:10
2. The Seventh day Sabbath is "a day of holy convocation" Leviticus 23:2
3. "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to bow down" Isaiah 66:23
4. Jesus was resurrected on week-day-1 Sunday... which means everyone knows what day is the 7th
5. Exodus 16:23 "tomorrow is the Sabbath"

 

[BobRyan]

Walter Martin also leaves out Catholicism as a cult-

Martin includes Adventists only in the Appendix - and says the inclusion is merely to point out that they are not a Cult.

 

[Yeshua1]

"8. For about a hundred years—1840s to 1950s—many evangelical denominations considered SDA to be a non-Christian cult (like the Jehovah’s Witnesses). But dialogue with SDA scholars and apologists in the 1950s led to a reconsideration of that position by some evangelicals. As Kenneth R. Samples says, the dialogue convinced many that “SDA was not an anti-Christian cult, but rather a somewhat heterodox (i.e., departing from accepted doctrine) Christian denomination.” The Christian Research Institute provides a key example of the rationale for this view:

Since SDA does accept the foundational doctrines of historic Christianity (the Trinity, Christ’s true deity, his bodily resurrection, etc.) we do not believe that it should be classified as a non-Christian cult. It is our conviction that one cannot be a true Jehovah’s Witness, Mormon, Christian Scientist, etc., and be a practicing Christian in the biblical sense of the word; but it is possible to be a Seventh-day Adventist and a true follower of Jesus, despite certain distinctive Adventist doctrines which we consider to be unbiblical.

Although few evangelicals today consider SDA a non-Christian cult, many still caution against embracing the denomination as an acceptable branch of Protestantism. As Nathan Busenitz says, “In spite of the ecumenical spirit that has pervaded evangelicalism over the last few decades, there are still major deficiencies within official SDA theology that ought to give evangelical Christians serious pause.”

9 Things You Should Know About Seventh-day Adventism

The Church of Rome believes in some Christian doctrine, such as the trinity , and Jesus is God, but they are still not a true Church!

 

[Yeshua1]

1. "The seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD" Ex 20:10
2. The Seventh day Sabbath is "a day of holy convocation" Leviticus 23:2
3. "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to bow down" Isaiah 66:23
4. Jesus was resurrected on week-day-1 Sunday... which means everyone knows what day is the 7th
5. Exodus 16:23 "tomorrow is the Sabbath"

Do you have any NT/NC support for the Sabbath being carried over to us now?

 

[BobRyan]

Do you have any NT/NC support for the Sabbath being carried over to us now?

New Covenant is in Jeremiah 31:31-33 and the "term LAW" known to Jeremiah and his readers would have included the Ten Commandments as even the "Baptist Confession of Faith" will admit. so just stating the obvious.

"EVERY Sabbath" is when they attend the synagogues for both worship and Gospel preaching in Acts 18:4 both Jews and gentiles - no such text for that "every week day 1 Gospel teaching" idea in all of scripture.

What is more the NT writers call the Old Testament "scripture" and say it IS to be used for doctrine 2 Tim 3:16 -- perhaps you are not happy with that NT teaching.

Isaiah 66:23 says that for all eternity after the cross - in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before me to worship"

But as you seem to note that some commands such as "do not take God's name in vain" are never repeated in the actual NT text.

 

[Yeshua1]

New Covenant is in Jeremiah 31:31-33 and the "term LAW" known to Jeremiah and his readers would have included the Ten Commandments as even the "Baptist Confession of Faith" will admit. so just stating the obvious.

"EVERY Sabbath" is when they attend the synagogues for both worship and Gospel preaching in Acts 18:4 both Jews and gentiles - no such text for that "every week day 1 Gospel teaching" idea in all of scripture.

What is more the NT writers call the Old Testament "scripture" and say it IS to be used for doctrine 2 Tim 3:16 -- perhaps you are not happy with that NT teaching.

Isaiah 66:23 says that for all eternity after the cross - in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before me to worship"

But as you seem to note that some commands such as "do not take God's name in vain" are never repeated in the actual NT text.

The Jeremiah passage was for the time of the NC unto Israel, so that has not yet happened to the Jews...
Again, NO NT verses support us now still beijng bound to the Sabbath as THE Day to worship God now!

 

[One Baptism]

Do you have any NT/NC support for the Sabbath being carried over to us now?

Yes. Matthew 2:13-15; citing Hosea 11:1 KJB [Jesus is the true Israel, even as He is the True David, Adam, Solomon, etc, etc.Jeremiah 30:9; Ezekiel 34:23-24, 37:24-25; Hosea 3:5; 1 Corinthians 15:45-46], turn then to Hebrews 2:9-13 KJB, which in verse 13, cites Isaiah 8:18 [read Isaiah 8:8-20 KJB], therefore we know who Jesus [Israel's] children are, in Isaiah 8:16 KJB, as he says of them, "my disciples". Consider the NT texts which Jesus over and over again calls them "my disciples", and even "little children" [Matthew 12:46-50; Mark 14:14; Luke 14:26,27,33, 22:11; John 8:31, 13:35, 15:8 KJB, etc], Thus we know who the "children of Israel" is in referring to Exodus 31:13-18 KJB, and who is to keep the sabbath holy, as it is written, that there are two [not one] Israels:

[1] Israel after the flesh which are not the children of God [Romans 9:6-8; 1 Corinthians 10:18 KJB]; [Head, ruler, Jacob, son of Isaac] Genesis 32:28, 35:10,21; [body, peoples] Genesis 32:32, 35:22; Israel, the person, is as a “king” which is a head or ruler [Joshua 11:10; 1 Samuel 15:17; 1 Kings 1:35, 1 Chronicles 11:2; Psalms 105:20 KJB], over a body or kingdom/land [Isaiah 62:1-5 KJB]. The two [king & kingdom/land] are two things, yet joined, as husband and wife, or Head and body, Father and children, etc. and

[2] the Israel after the Spirit, Jesus Christ, and His children and body [Galatians 6:16; Hebrews 10:13; Romans 9:8 KJB', as it is written, first the natural, then follows the spiritual [1 Corinthians 15:46 KJB].​

But if we consider Isaiah 56:1 KJB, and ask who is "my salvation", and "my righteousness", we can go to the NT texts and know that it is Jesus [Matthew 1:21; Luke 2:20; Acts 4:10,12, see also Isaiah 46:13, 51:5,68,8; Psalms 119:172; Isaiah 48:18]. Then if we jump down to Isaiah 56:8 KJB, we see that it again refers to what Jesus is doing in the NT, as per its fulfillment in John 10:16 KJB. Then all one has to do, is to go back, and read the context between Isaiah 56:1 and Isaiah 56:8, by reading Isaiah 56:2-7, which mentions the "everlasting name", God's "my covenant" [which is the eternal, everlasting and also called New Covenant], and who is to join themselves unto the LORD, the Gentiles.

Thus for the fulfillment of those Isaiah 56 passages, we turn again to the NT, and read Matthew 10:25; [Malachi 1:6]; Luke 6:40; “... the Gentiles are turned to God:” - Acts 15:19 KJB, “That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called ...” - Acts 15:17 KJB, not to cast away the Tabernacle of David, no, but to build it up, see Acts 15:16-17; Amos 9:11-12 KJB, for God had winked at the ignorance of all men in the past, but now commands all men everywhere to come to Him in repentance, and come into obedience to His Law, see Acts 17:30 KJB, see Acts 4:24, 14:15-16; Revelation 10:6, 14:6-7; 2 Peter 2:21; Revelation 12:17; 14:12, 22:14 KJB.

Then compare Exodus 20:8-11, especially verse 11, and align it with Nehemiah 9:6, Psalms 146:6; [Jews] Acts 4:24; [Gentiles] Acts 14:15-16; [all peoples] Revelation 10:6; 14:6-7; and back again to the Gentiles repenting and coming into obedience unto God's Holy commandment [Exodus 20:8; 2 Peter 2:21 KJB], in Acts 13:42-44; Acts 16:13, 18:4,11; Acts 15:21, 17:2 [compare Luke 4:6 in language]; 17:3-4; and also in Hebrews 4:2,4,9,10; Romans 11:26; and then follow it to Isaiah 58:1,12-14.

John 10:35 KJB, unbreakable..

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes. Matthew 2:13-15; citing Hosea 11:1 KJB [Jesus is the true Israel, even as He is the True David, Adam, Solomon, etc, etc.Jeremiah 30:9; Ezekiel 34:23-24, 37:24-25; Hosea 3:5; 1 Corinthians 15:45-46], turn then to Hebrews 2:9-13 KJB, which in verse 13, cites Isaiah 8:18 [read Isaiah 8:8-20 KJB], therefore we know who Jesus [Israel's] chirldren are, in Isaiah 8:16 KJB, as he says of them, "my disciples". Consider the NT texts which Jesus over and over again calls them "my disciples", and even "little children" [Matthew 12:46-50; Mark 14:14; Luke 14:26,27,33, 22:11; John 8:31, 13:35, 15:8 KJB, etc], Thus we know who the "children of Israel" is in referring to Exodus 31:13-18 KJB, and who is to keep the sabbath holy, as it is written, that there are two [not one] Israels:

[1] Israel after the flesh which are not the children of God [Romans 9:6-8; 1 Corinthians 10:18 KJB]; [Head, ruler, Jacob, son of Isaac] Genesis 32:28, 35:10,21; [body, peoples] Genesis 32:32, 35:22; Israel, the person, is as a “king” which is a head or ruler [Joshua 11:10; 1 Samuel 15:17; 1 Kings 1:35, 1 Chronicles 11:2; Psalms 105:20 KJB], over a body or kingdom/land [Isaiah 62:1-5 KJB]. The two [king & kingdom/land] are two things, yet joined, as husband and wife, or Head and body, Father and children, etc. and

[2] the Israel after the Spirit, Jesus Christ, and His children and body [Galatians 6:16; Hebrews 10:13; Romans 9:8 KJB', as it is written, first the natural, then follows the spiritual [1 Corinthians 15:46 KJB].​

But if we consider Isaiah 56:1 KJB, and ask who is "my salvation", and "my righteousness", we can go to the NT texts and know that it is Jesus [Matthew 1:21; Luke 2:20; Acts 4:10,12, see also Isaiah 46:13, 51:5,68,8; Psalms 119:172; Isaiah 48:18]. Then if we jump down to Isaiah 56:8 KJB, we see that it again refers to what Jesus is doing in the NT, as per its fulfillment in John 10:16 KJB. Then all one has to do, is to go back, and read the context between Isaiah 56:1 and Isaiah 56:8, byt reading Isaiah 56:2-7, which mentions the "everlasting name", God's "my covnenant" [which is the eternal, everlasting and also called New Covenant], and who is to join themselves unto the LORD, the Gentiles.

Thus for the fulfillment of those Isaiah 56 passages, we turn again to the NT, and read Matthew 10:25; [Malachi 1:6]; Luke 6:40; “... the Gentiles are turned to God:” - Acts 15:19 KJB, “That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called ...” - Acts 15:17 KJB, not to cast away the Tabernacle of David, no, but to build it up, see Acts 15:16-17; Amos 9:11-12 KJB, for God had winked at the ignorance of all men in the past, but now commands all men everywhere to come to Him in repentance, and come into obedience to His Law, see Acts 17:30 KJB, see Acts 4:24, 14:15-16; Revelation 10:6, 14:6-7; 2 Peter 2:21; Revelation 12:17; 14:12, 22:14 KJB.

Then compare Exodus 20:8-11, especially verse 11, and align it with Nehemiah 9:6, Psalms 146:6; [Jews] Acts 4:24; [Gentiles] Acts 14:15-16; [all peoples] Revelation 10:6; 14:6-7; and back again to the the Gentiles repenting and coming into obedience unto God's Holy commandment [Exodus 20:8; 2 Peter 2:21 KJB], in Acts 13:42-44; Acts 16:13, 18:4,11; Acts 15:21, 17:2 [compare Luke 4:6 in language]; 17:3-4; and also in Hebrews 4:2,4,9,10; Romans 11:26; and then follow it to Isaiah 58:1,12-14.

John 10:35 KJB, unbreakable..

Paul; states that none can judge us now for what Sabbath to follow though in Colossians!

 

[One Baptism]

Paul; states that none can judge us now for what Sabbath to follow though in Colossians!

You misread. Care to look at it?

 

[Yeshua1]

You misread. Care to look at it?

Colossians 2:16 seems pretty simple!

 

[One Baptism]

Colossians 2:16 seems pretty simple!

It sure is. it speaks in context of "shadow" "sabbath days" [plural]. Those would be the various festal sabbaths associated with the New Moons, and its times, as found in Leviticus 23:4 and onward, Leviticus 25, etc.

The Ten Commandments, including Exodus 20:8-11 KJB, and the 7th day the sabbath of the LORD thy God, is never a shadow, but is always "light", as per Proverbs 6:23; Isaiah 8:20, 51:4; 1 John 2:8, etc KJB.

Compare Colossians 2:14-16 KJB, in its "ordinances", to Ephesians 2:14-16, as well as Hebrews 9:1-10, 10:1,11, etc. Notice, "carnal" "ordinances", not "spiritual" as the Ten Commandments are [Romans 7:14 KJB], and notice the words "things to come" [Colossians 2:17 KJB], and "ages to come" [Ephesians 2:7 KJB], and "of good things to come" [Hebrews 10:1 KJB]. Well the Ten Commandments are already and always "good" [Romans 7:12 KJB], and never have to wait for it to have been so. The 7th Day the Sabbath is also a memorial - pointing to that which is completed in the past.

You do not realize that Paul is citing Psalms 98:1-3; Ezekiel 45:17, etc.

If you compare Colossians 2:16 to Ezekiel 45:17 KJB, you will notice an order of progression, an increase:

[1] meat and drink [refer to the daily offerings]

[2] an holy day [refers to the seasonal feast days]

[3] new moons [refers to the cyclical month days]

[4] of sabbath days [refers to the yearly, 7th year and 50th years days]​

Did you see the order of increase? Those "sabbath days" have nothing to do with the weekly cycle at all. Nothing to do with "light". Nothing to do with "spiritual". They are festal, Moon related, shadows and carnal ordinances under a worldly sanctuary.

God's Ten Commandments, including the fourth, is eternally written in Heaven: Exodus 25:9,40; Numbers 8:4; 1 Chronicles 28:12,19; Hebrews 8:5; Psalms 119:89 KJB, see also Psalms 50:6, 97:6; Psalms 119:172; Hebrews 8:2, 9:11; Revelation 11:19, 15:5 KJB.

 

[BobRyan]

The Jeremiah passage was for the time of the NC unto Israel, so that has not yet happened to the Jews... !

The Jeremiah passage is quoted verbatim in Hebrews 8 as applying still just as it was in Jeremiah 31:31-33

 

[BobRyan]

Colossians 2:16 seems pretty simple!

Particularly when you read Colossians 2 and not just one verse.

 

[BobRyan]

Paul; states that none can judge us now for what Sabbath to follow though in Colossians!

Paul says nothing about "judge us now" in Col 2.. rather he argues the same point after the cross as was already the case in Matthew 7 before the cross. Do not judge others and pay no attention to the traditions and doctrines of men.

 

[BobRyan]

The Ten Commandments, including Exodus 20:8-11 KJB, and the 7th day the sabbath of the LORD thy God, is never a shadow, but is always "light", as per Proverbs 6:23; Isaiah 8:20, 51:4; 1 John 2:8, etc KJB.
.

True

 

[One Baptism]

... the Sabbath as THE Day to worship God now!

Mankind is to worship God at all times, in every day. This is not the issue. The issue is the specificity of the 4th Commandment itself. To work on the other six common days, in accordance with God's word, is to worship God. To cease from all common work, upon the 7th day the Sabbath and to keep it holy, as according to God's word, is to worship God. To attempt to not so rest upon the 7th day, and to not keep it holy, by doing whatever pleases you or other men, rather than God, is to not worship God, but yourself, and thus satan.

A Christian, as the Jews did, may meet together, pray together, study together, worship together any and all days of the week. That is not the issue. The issue is in the specificity of the 4th Commandment. In fact, I meet with others regularly throughout the week to study, pray, etc, sometimes at a church buliding, sometimes in a home, sometimes out in nature.

So, indeed, and worship God every day, meet together often!, not only in Acts, yes even in the Gospels and elsewhere, the Christians [even as did the Jews] met daily, none of which eliminates obedience to God in His 4th Commandment:

Jesus met in the temple "daily" [and not only there, also synagogue, and in nature], even especially in his last week from Sunday to Tuesday, especially: John 11:55, 21:1; Matthew 26:55; Mark 14:49; Luke 19:47, 22:53; John 18:20; see additionally [in this order, read carefully], Matthew 21:10; Mark 11:11; John 12:12,13; Matthew 21:12,13,17; Mark 11:12,15,16,17,19; Matthew 26:2; Mark 14:1; Matthew 21:18,23; Mark 11:20,27; Matthew 23:37,38,39 [Parallel to Luke 13:31,32,33,34,35]

Acts 2:46 KJB - And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

Acts 5:42 KJB - And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.​

And does any know why this "daily"? Understand this text - Psalms 77:13

Also, Jesus met with the Disciples the 2nd day of the week here, since he spent a great deal of time with the two Disciples on the Road to Emmaus on the first day [see Luke 24:21, "...beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done"], it came to be evening [which begins the next day, when the sun sets at even, Mark 1:32; Leviticus 23:32; Genesis 1:5,8,13,19,23,31, etc ], and then they sat down to dinner, and as Jesus vanished before them, they ran back to Jerusalem at night and then Jesus met with them again, all together [thus no longer the 'first [day] of the week', but rather the second [day] of the week]:

Luke 24:29 KJB - But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.

Luke 24:30 KJB - And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.

Luke 24:33 KJB - And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,

Luke 24:36 KJB - And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.​

Jesus also stayed for 40 days after His resurrection, His first ascension and return:

Acts 1:3 KJB - To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:​

Thus, since Jesus ascended for the Second time, this time from the Mount of Olives, he was there with them exactly 10 days before Pentecost [first [day] of the week], which means, we see again that Jesus was with them not merely upon the first [day] of the week.

Hebrews 10:25 KJB - Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.​

The "the day" is two things:

[1] the 7th Day the sabbath of the LORD [Jesus] thy God, at the culmination of each week, an "holy convocation" [Leviticus 23:3; Exodus 20:8; 2 Peter 2:21 KJB]

[2] the Day of the LORD, the great cosmic Sabbath, the second Advent, unto the third advent, known as the 1,000 years, which will begin here [the evening portion, the dark part, when no man can work, probation closed, and in Heaven there is no night there] on earth, soon, this being the greater 7th Day with the LORD, as per Psalms 90:4; 2 Peter 3:8, etc. KJB​

 

[BobRyan]

Mankind is to worship God at all times, in every day. This is not the issue. The issue is the specificity of the 4th Commandment itself.

True -- all the stories and creative writing of man aside - what matters is the Word of God.

In this case the actual text of the Command being discussed.