Walter Martin's "Kingdom of the Cults" declares Adventist are not a Cult and destroys Hoekema's book

[Eric B]

SDA is not as "closed" and rejecting of the doctrine of "faith-alone" and non-SDA's as necessarily "lost" as other groups (such as most of the other sabbatarians, and the JW's, etc.) and also accept the Trinity, which is the main thing that "gets them over" to CRI and some others. (That's the number one "deal-breaker" for accepting a movement or not).

Still, just because one leader and ministry (Martin/CRI, and the ministries he lists in the book as saying they're not a cult) declares a group not a cult doesn't mean the group's teachings are right. For that would be to essentially assign to that ministry and leaders the ultimate authority in truth. Like what they declare as true or not means so much, and proves your group is true. Those same authorities still say Sunday, eternal Hell and non-kosker diet are the true Christian beliefs, and you believe they're wrong on those points, so what does them saying SDA is not a cult because of them (i.e. you're wrong on them, but they choose not to make you salvation depend on it) really prove?

 

[BobRyan]

SDA is not as "closed" and rejecting of the doctrine of "faith-alone" and non-SDA's as necessarily "lost" as other groups (such as most of the other sabbatarians, and the JW's, etc.) and also accept the Trinity, which is the main thing that "gets them over" to CRI and some others. (That's the number one "deal-breaker" for accepting a movement or not).

Still, just because one leader and ministry (Martin/CRI, and the ministries he lists in the book as saying they're not a cult) declares a group not a cult doesn't mean the group's teachings are right. For that would be to essentially assign to that ministry and leaders the ultimate authority in truth. Like what they declare as true or not means so much, and proves your group is true. Those same authorities still say Sunday, eternal Hell and non-kosker diet are the true Christian beliefs,

Martin spends a portion of his time in that chapter on Seventh-day Adventists to show where Adventist teaching differs from his own - but in most cases those differences are also shared by other Christian denominations as compared to Martin. He allows for "differences".

But to your point that Martin is still not the grand pontiff -- it is not being challenged by me. I never say that I "believe something because Martin said it". But I do argue that when the details are so incredibly obvious that even non-SDAs of Martin's caliber - can see them even though he is not an Adventist by a long shot... that says something for objectivity.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, you already stressed that you did not address my pork eating question and that you addressed mice eating (right there in bold). .

AND I addressed that "reading the Bible" and "accepting the Bible" are a focus for me.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
I only mentioned mice... you are the one that is hair-on-fire over the pork topic.

In fact your made it clear....

So we need you to address my pork eating question.....

Why? Why can't I just keep quoting the actual Bible and leave it up to you to join me in "reading" and "believing"??

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus staed to us that right NOW we have passed from eternal death unto life, so how can one lose eternal life?

Matthew 18 comes to mind.

Romans 11 comes to mind

1 Corinthians 6 comes to mind

Hebrews 6 comes to mind.

Matthew 6 comes to mind

Ezekiel 18 comes to mind

 

[BobRyan]

Isaiah 66 says someone is going to burn in hell for eating mice... you knew that right?

Isaiah 66
“But he who kills an ox is like one who slays a man;
He who sacrifices a lamb is like the one who breaks a dog’s neck;
He who offers a grain offering is like one who offers swine’s blood;
He who burns incense is like the one who blesses an idol.
As they have chosen their own ways,
And their soul delights in their abominations,
4 So I will choose their punishments
And will bring on them what they dread.
Because I called, but no one answered;
I spoke, but they did not listen.
And they did evil in My sight
And chose that in which I did not delight.”
...
15 For behold, the Lord will come in fire
And His chariots like the whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For the Lord will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the Lord will be many.
.
17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens,
Following one in the center,
Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice,
Will come to an end altogether,” declares the Lord

John 9
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.


===================================

So go ahead now and address my question about pork eating, not mice eating.

Sounds like you are giving God "just a little space" for saying something about mice eating. Did I get that right?

 

[BobRyan]

He keeps dodging the pork and Sabbath question!

Keep dodging the "Reading the Bible" point

 

[steaver]

Why? Why can't I just keep quoting the actual Bible and leave it up to you to join me in "reading" and "believing"??

Well apparently the Bible you keep quoting has nothing to do with my question because you keep declaring you have answred nothing about eating pork but everything about eating mice. Thus, still waiting to here your answer on the pork. You gladly answered about mice, which I did not ask, but very evasive about the pork. Why is that ?

 

[BobRyan]

Isaiah 66 says someone is going to burn in hell for eating mice... you knew that right?

Isaiah 66
“But he who kills an ox is like one who slays a man;
He who sacrifices a lamb is like the one who breaks a dog’s neck;
He who offers a grain offering is like one who offers swine’s blood;
He who burns incense is like the one who blesses an idol.
As they have chosen their own ways,
And their soul delights in their abominations,
4 So I will choose their punishments
And will bring on them what they dread.
Because I called, but no one answered;
I spoke, but they did not listen.
And they did evil in My sight
And chose that in which I did not delight.”
...
15 For behold, the Lord will come in fire
And His chariots like the whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For the Lord will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the Lord will be many.
.
17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens,
Following one in the center,
Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice,
Will come to an end altogether,” declares the Lord

John 9
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.


===================================

steaver said: ↑
So go ahead now and address my question about pork eating, not mice eating.

Sounds like you are giving God "just a little space" for saying something about mice eating. Did I get that right?

You gladly answered about mice, which I did not ask,

There again - you seem to 'hint' That you would "allow God" to have something to say about Mice.

Most interesting.

Well apparently the Bible you keep quoting has nothing to do with my question

Fascinating.

All the same -- I find reading the Bible and accepting what it says to be of utmost interest.

 

[steaver]

Isaiah 66 says someone is going to burn in hell for eating mice... you knew that right?

Yeah, I keep asking about pork and you keep talking about mice.

How instructive. You know one should be able to embrace and teach what they believe with boldness. It's very revealing how cultish sects always do the dance and game around when asked pointed questions. My work here has been a success. It's all about drawing the darkness into the Light. Light always wins!!

 

[BobRyan]

Yeah, I keep asking about pork and you keep talking about mice.

How instructive.

Sadly for that I post - I keep talking about 'Reading' the Bible AND "believing it" and you keep deleting every detail that has anything to do with the Bible... possible because your position "needs it".

You know that we can all see you doing that... why keep doing it as if we think "Well if Steaver won't admit he does what he is doing with every single post -- we all agree not to 'see' it"????

Here I would also point out that you never do this sort of thing in the C-vs-A discussions. "Avoid the Bible" is not even remotely a tactic that your posts use in those cases.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

 

[steaver]

Sadly for that I post - I keep talking about 'Reading' the Bible AND "believing it"

Yes Bob. We all read the Bible and believe it.

So why are we all here on the BB? Oh that's right! We all believe the Bible is saying something different.

So what do we do? Do we just keep telling each other to read the Bible and believe it?? Well isn't that instructive.

Hey steaver! Why do you hold to the doctrine of OSAS? I'll tell you why, read the Bible and believe it! But steaver, why do you say SDA is not preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Well Bob, read the Bible and believe it!

Boy, this sure is some good teaching on my part. I am fantastic! I sure was very instructive and now Bob should certainly understand that OSAS is fact and the SDA is preaching a false Gospel. After all, I instructed him to read the Bible and believe it!

 

[BobRyan]

Yes Bob. We all read the Bible and believe it.

Shouldn't that include a willingness to discuss the "actual details" in the text being quoted a zillion times and ignored the same amount?

 

[Yeshua1]

Keep dodging the "Reading the Bible" point

I have read it several times through, and still looking in it for the extra/non biblical stuff EW made up!

 

[BobRyan]

I have read it several times through,

Well when I post actual Bible texts on this thread -- a lot of "crickets" chirping in the opposing response plus even more "creative writing" that is not the kind of friendly opposing debate I "expected" from sola-scriptura folks.

 

[Yeshua1]

You have yet to show form the Bible only where the theology of the Sda as regards to EW was correct!

 

[BobRyan]

You have yet to show form the Bible only where the theology of the Sda as regards to EW was correct!

Quote something from SDA theology first --let's see it posted as fact vs empty accusation

BTW you argue at that point as if all of SDA theology is correct except some unnamed statement about Ellen White. I find that fascinating.

And one more thing. So far you only post old worn-out tired and hollow accusations about Adventists that were already worn and thread-bare at the time that Walter Martin wrote that this does not have enough merit to make SDAs a cult. What "exactly" then - is your point?

 

[steaver]

Shouldn't that include a willingness to discuss the "actual details" in the text being quoted a zillion times and ignored the same amount?

I asked you to discuss the pork eating and all you kept saying was read the Bible and believe it. Now if you want to point out a Bible detail on pork eating and expound on it I am all ears.

 

[BobRyan]

steaver said: ↑
Yes Bob. We all read the Bible and believe it.

Shouldn't that include a willingness to discuss the "actual details" in the text being quoted a zillion times and ignored the same amount?

I asked you to discuss the pork eating and all you kept saying was read the Bible and believe it.

Interesting that you then "left out" the text quoted a zillion times as if all you got was "I kept saying" instead of "the Bible kept being pointed out to you" and then you did everything possible to ignore it entirely.

 

[BobRyan]

You have yet to show form the Bible only where the theology of the Sda as regards to EW was correct!

Theology about what?? Name some doctrine... quote something.