Walter Martin's "Kingdom of the Cults" declares Adventist are not a Cult and destroys Hoekema's book

[BobRyan]

It would be great to see less creative writing here... and more Bible

 

[BobRyan]

SDA is not as "closed" and rejecting of the doctrine of "faith-alone" and non-SDA's as necessarily "lost" as other groups (such as most of the other sabbatarians, and the JW's, etc.) and also accept the Trinity, which is the main thing that "gets them over" to CRI and some others. (That's the number one "deal-breaker" for accepting a movement or not).

True. There has to be a basic set of common doctrines that are accepted short of "everyone that does not agree with me on everything must be in a cult". Walter Martin saw that point clearly.

 

[steaver]

Interesting that you then "left out" the text quoted a zillion times as if all you got was "I kept saying" instead of "the Bible kept being pointed out to you" and then you did everything possible to ignore it entirely.

I kept talking about pork, you kept saying you said nothing about pork. Thus, you never addressed the pork eating. If you have a "bible detail" on pork then point to it. Actually do some teaching on what you claim you believe about what the Bible says about eating pork. Your go to answer, "Read the Bible and believe it" is not being instructive.

 

[BobRyan]

I kept talking about pork, you kept saying you said nothing about pork.

True. I keep reminding you that it is you that is stuck on the pork topic. I quote the Bible and I actually address the subject of "Mice".

Your posts make it appear that you have no problem with God having Bible texts that speak to the subject of "Mice".

Is that something you are free to comment on - since the text keeps coming up... or are you still sworn to silence on that text?

Thus, you never addressed the pork eating.
If you have a "bible detail" on pork then point to it. .

Isaiah 66 says someone is going to burn in hell for eating mice... you knew that right?

Isaiah 66
“But he who kills an ox is like one who slays a man;
He who sacrifices a lamb is like the one who breaks a dog’s neck;
He who offers a grain offering is like one who offers swine’s blood;
He who burns incense is like the one who blesses an idol.
As they have chosen their own ways,
And their soul delights in their abominations,
4 So I will choose their punishments
And will bring on them what they dread.
Because I called, but no one answered;
I spoke, but they did not listen.
And they did evil in My sight
And chose that in which I did not delight.”
...
15 For behold, the Lord will come in fire
And His chariots like the whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For the Lord will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the Lord will be many.
.
17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens,
Following one in the center,
Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice,
Will come to an end altogether,” declares the Lord

John 9
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.


===================================

Sounds like you are giving God "just a little space" for saying something about mice eating. Did I get that right?

...
All the same -- I find reading the Bible and accepting what it says to be of utmost interest.

Are you still "sworn to secrecy and silence" when it comes to those texts??

 

[steaver]

True. I keep reminding you that it is you that is stuck on the pork topic. I quote the Bible and I actually address the subject of "Mice".
?

It has been noted that you agree you never answered my question about eating pork.

But you do want to talk about eating mice. Ok. Educate us all on SDA teaching concerning the eating of mice as it relates to christians being damned to hell.

 

[BobRyan]

steaver said: ↑
Does Jesus have a double standard? He holds pork eating as a damnable sin

Isaiah 66 says someone is going to burn in hell for eating mice... you knew that right?

Isaiah 66
“But he who kills an ox is like one who slays a man;
He who sacrifices a lamb is like the one who breaks a dog’s neck;
He who offers a grain offering is like one who offers swine’s blood;
He who burns incense is like the one who blesses an idol.
As they have chosen their own ways,
And their soul delights in their abominations,
4 So I will choose their punishments
And will bring on them what they dread.
Because I called, but no one answered;
I spoke, but they did not listen.
And they did evil in My sight
And chose that in which I did not delight.”
...
15 For behold, the Lord will come in fire
And His chariots like the whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For the Lord will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the Lord will be many.
.
17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens,
Following one in the center,
Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice,
Will come to an end altogether,” declares the Lord

John 9
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

If you have a "bible detail" on pork then point to it.

Pretty funny! ... question for you ... do you actually read the posts?


This was my "actual" posted response.

Isaiah 66 says someone is going to burn in hell for eating mice... you knew that right?

Isaiah 66
“But he who kills an ox is like one who slays a man;
He who sacrifices a lamb is like the one who breaks a dog’s neck;
He who offers a grain offering is like one who offers swine’s blood;
He who burns incense is like the one who blesses an idol.
As they have chosen their own ways,
And their soul delights in their abominations,
4 So I will choose their punishments
And will bring on them what they dread.
Because I called, but no one answered;
I spoke, but they did not listen.
And they did evil in My sight
And chose that in which I did not delight.”
...
15 For behold, the Lord will come in fire
And His chariots like the whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For the Lord will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the Lord will be many.
.
17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens,
Following one in the center,
Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice,
Will come to an end altogether,” declares the Lord

John 9
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

My response above which of course you did include "except for all that Bible quoting, Bible details, Bible reading" I called for in my post... you know... 'the usual'

But you do want to talk about eating mice. Ok. Educate us all on SDA teaching concerning the eating of mice as it relates to christians being damned to hell.

I assume at this point that you think that the Bible was written by "me" so ignoring what the Bible says in my posts is "just fine" with you?

 

[Yeshua1]

Quote something from SDA theology first --let's see it posted as fact vs empty accusation

BTW you argue at that point as if all of SDA theology is correct except some unnamed statement about Ellen White. I find that fascinating.

And one more thing. So far you only post old worn-out tired and hollow accusations about Adventists that were already worn and thread-bare at the time that Walter Martin wrote that this does not have enough merit to make SDAs a cult. What "exactly" then - is your point?

Any group that see its founder as being inspired of and by God in same sense the prophets/[apostles were. who deny the true Gospel, who mix law and Grace, and who deny that the scriptures alone are sufficient and inspired by God would be a Cult!

 

[Yeshua1]

It would be great to see less creative writing here... and more Bible

The supreme irony in that statement is sublime, for all that the Sda has are the uninspired ramblings of a false prophetess to be built upon!

 

[steaver]

I assume at this point that you think that the Bible was written by "me" so ignoring what the Bible says in my posts is "just fine" with you?

You will have to point us to the part that says a Christian will be damned to hell for eating mice. I see those who sanctify themselves, but obviously any Bible student would know that no Christian sacrifices animals and eats them to sanctify themselves. So like I said, you will have to do some teaching, because so far you haven't shown any support for your position.

 

[BobRyan]

steaver said: ↑
If you have a "bible detail" on pork then point to it.

This was my "actual" posted response.

Isaiah 66 says someone is going to burn in hell for eating mice... you knew that right?

Isaiah 66
“But he who kills an ox is like one who slays a man;
He who sacrifices a lamb is like the one who breaks a dog’s neck;
He who offers a grain offering is like one who offers swine’s blood;
He who burns incense is like the one who blesses an idol.
As they have chosen their own ways,
And their soul delights in their abominations,
4 So I will choose their punishments
And will bring on them what they dread.
Because I called, but no one answered;
I spoke, but they did not listen.
And they did evil in My sight
And chose that in which I did not delight.”
...
15 For behold, the Lord will come in fire
And His chariots like the whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For the Lord will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the Lord will be many.
.
17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens,
Following one in the center,
Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice,
Will come to an end altogether,” declares the Lord

John 9
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

You will have to point us to the part that says a Christian will be damned to hell for eating mice. I see those who sanctify themselves, but obviously any Bible student would know that no Christian sacrifices animals and eats them to sanctify themselves. .

The text does not say "who love their neighbor and eat oranges and also eat mice" your response makes it appear that you think that text is simply "listing random facts" when He says -

17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens,
Following one in the center,
Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice,
Will come to an end altogether,” declares the Lord

 

[steaver]

This was my "actual" posted response.

Isaiah 66 says someone is going to burn in hell for eating mice... you knew that right?

He says -

17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens,
Following one in the center,
Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice,
Will come to an end altogether,” declares the Lord

There is a qualifier you are blantantly choosing to ignore. Christians do not sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens "following one in the center".

What makes these things "detestable" is their unholy sacrifice. Paul said he as a strong Christian could eat anything he wants, even things offered as an unholy sacrifice. God told Peter to eat whatever is placed before him. Do you understand what WHATEVER means? This is so obvious I must consider you to be willfully blind on this matter. it would have to be, willfully choosing EGW over the actual message of the text. You really need to pray to Jesus over what you have been led to believe.

 

[BobRyan]

steaver said: ↑
If you have a "bible detail" on pork then point to it.

This was my "actual" posted response.

Isaiah 66 says someone is going to burn in hell for eating mice... you knew that right?

Isaiah 66
“But he who kills an ox is like one who slays a man;
He who sacrifices a lamb is like the one who breaks a dog’s neck;
He who offers a grain offering is like one who offers swine’s blood;
He who burns incense is like the one who blesses an idol.
As they have chosen their own ways,
And their soul delights in their abominations,
4 So I will choose their punishments
And will bring on them what they dread.
Because I called, but no one answered;
I spoke, but they did not listen.
And they did evil in My sight
And chose that in which I did not delight.”
...
15 For behold, the Lord will come in fire
And His chariots like the whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For the Lord will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the Lord will be many.
.
17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens,
Following one in the center,
Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice,
Will come to an end altogether,” declares the Lord

John 9
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

steaver said: ↑
You will have to point us to the part that says a Christian will be damned to hell for eating mice. I see those who sanctify themselves, but obviously any Bible student would know that no Christian sacrifices animals and eats them to sanctify themselves. .

The text does not say "who love their neighbor and eat oranges and also eat mice" your response makes it appear that you think that text is simply "listing random facts" when He says -

17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens,
Following one in the center,
Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice,
Will come to an end altogether,” declares the Lord

There is a qualifier you are blantantly choosing to ignore.

Not in the actual Bible.

My focus is on "the actual Bible" -- no gaming.

Christians do not sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens "following one in the center".

Neither did the kid who shot people at the school in Florida. Not all sin is "the same sin" as I am sure we both know.

The text is not stated as "Here is a list of good things to do... except one of them is bad"
The text is not stated as "these are only bad things to do ... if you do all of them at once".

I prefer to focus on the Bible.

What makes these things "detestable" is their unholy sacrifice. .

I already debunked that one in my prior statement - The text does not say "who love their neighbor and also eat mice" your response makes it appear that you think that text is simply "listing random facts" or is trying to mix in some wonderful actions in with one bad one about eating mice.

Please be serious. Your bias is transparent at that point and forces you into indefensible arguments.

 

[Yeshua1]

This was my "actual" posted response.

Isaiah 66 says someone is going to burn in hell for eating mice... you knew that right?

Isaiah 66
“But he who kills an ox is like one who slays a man;
He who sacrifices a lamb is like the one who breaks a dog’s neck;
He who offers a grain offering is like one who offers swine’s blood;
He who burns incense is like the one who blesses an idol.
As they have chosen their own ways,
And their soul delights in their abominations,
4 So I will choose their punishments
And will bring on them what they dread.
Because I called, but no one answered;
I spoke, but they did not listen.
And they did evil in My sight
And chose that in which I did not delight.”
...
15 For behold, the Lord will come in fire
And His chariots like the whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For the Lord will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the Lord will be many.
.
17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens,
Following one in the center,
Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice,
Will come to an end altogether,” declares the Lord

John 9
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.





The text does not say "who love their neighbor and eat oranges and also eat mice" your response makes it appear that you think that text is simply "listing random facts" when He says -

17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens,
Following one in the center,
Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice,
Will come to an end altogether,” declares the Lord



Not in the actual Bible.

My focus is on "the actual Bible" -- no gaming.



Neither did the kid who shot people at the school in Florida. Not all sin is "the same sin" as I am sure we both know.

The text is not stated as "Here is a list of good things to do... except one of them is bad"
The text is not stated as "these are only bad things to do ... if you do all of them at once".

I prefer to focus on the Bible.



I already debunked that one in my prior statement - The text does not say "who love their neighbor and also eat mice" your response makes it appear that you think that text is simply "listing random facts" or is trying to mix in some wonderful actions in with one bad one about eating mice.

Please be serious. Your bias is transparent at that point and forces you into indefensible arguments.

Jesus stated that what defiles a man is what is within his heart, not what is in his stomach!

 

[steaver]

Please be serious. Your bias is transparent at that point and forces you into indefensible arguments.

Now isn't this a revealing statement? "Bias...forces" an interpretation/application of Scripture. Now that's pretty funny. Can you name one Christian denomination out of the many thousand that exist which agree with EGW's assertion that Is 66 is about Christians eating mice and being damned to hell?

 

[BobRyan]

steaver said: ↑
If you have a "bible detail" on pork then point to it.

This was my "actual" posted response.

Isaiah 66 says someone is going to burn in hell for eating mice... you knew that right?

Isaiah 66
“But he who kills an ox is like one who slays a man;
He who sacrifices a lamb is like the one who breaks a dog’s neck;
He who offers a grain offering is like one who offers swine’s blood;
He who burns incense is like the one who blesses an idol.
As they have chosen their own ways,
And their soul delights in their abominations,
4 So I will choose their punishments
And will bring on them what they dread.
Because I called, but no one answered;
I spoke, but they did not listen.
And they did evil in My sight
And chose that in which I did not delight.”
...
15 For behold, the Lord will come in fire
And His chariots like the whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For the Lord will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the Lord will be many.
.
17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens,
Following one in the center,
Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice,
Will come to an end altogether,” declares the Lord

John 9
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

steaver said: ↑
You will have to point us to the part that says a Christian will be damned to hell for eating mice. I see those who sanctify themselves, but obviously any Bible student would know that no Christian sacrifices animals and eats them to sanctify themselves.

The text does not say "who love their neighbor and eat oranges and also eat mice" your response makes it appear that you think that text is simply "listing random facts" when He says -

17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens,
Following one in the center,
Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice,
Will come to an end altogether,” declares the Lord

steaver said: ↑
There is a qualifier you are blantantly choosing to ignore.

Not in the actual Bible.
My focus is on "the actual Bible" -- no gaming.

Christians do not sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens "following one in the center".

Neither did the kid who shot people at the school in Florida. Not all sin is "the same sin" as I am sure we both know.

The text is not stated as "Here is a list of good things to do... except one of them is bad"
The text is not stated as "these are only bad things to do ... if you do all of them at once".

I prefer to focus on the Bible.

steaver said: ↑
What makes these things "detestable" is their unholy sacrifice. .

I already debunked that one in my prior statement - The text does not say "who love their neighbor and also eat mice" your response makes it appear that you think that text is simply "listing random facts" or is trying to mix in some wonderful actions in with one bad one about eating mice.

Please be serious. Your bias is transparent at that point and forces you into indefensible arguments requiring the current "distance" you keep holding from the text.

Now isn't this a revealing statement? "Bias...forces" an interpretation/application of Scripture

In the case of your constant dance to get around the actual text in the posts... I would say it is "downright insightful"

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus stated that what defiles a man is what is within his heart, not what is in his stomach!

Quote an actual Bible text please... quoting "yourself" is getting old

 

[Yeshua1]

Quote an actual Bible text please... quoting "yourself" is getting old

Matthew 15:11

 

[steaver]

In the case of your constant dance to get around the actual text in the posts... I would say it is "downright insightful"

And then there is the facts. I gave you the obvious message that glares from the text. You have your EGW tunnel vision on a one liner about eating the sacrifice, which you cannot even see the sacrifice, you can only see mice eating.

Have you come up with any Christian denomination or organization that sees Is 66 as Christians being damned to hell for eating mice? I didn't think so.

How about this. Is there any SDA members who DO NOT believe Is66 is about Christian mice eaters being damned to hell? I didn't think so.

So then, who is the bias student believing ONLY as they have been instructed to believe by EGW?

As I said before, SDAs are stuck, they can ONLY believe as they are told to believe by EGW. There can be no Sola Scriptura testing for it is totally biased.

 

[BobRyan]

Matthew 15:11

And what do you claim it is talking about -- eating mice or eating bread??

 

[BobRyan]

And then there is the facts. I gave you the obvious message that glares from the text. You have your EGW

You what????

You quoted the actual text and addressed details in it??

First of all I don't think I have seen that post of yours... will start sifting very carefully to find it.

Second of all - were it all true that you are now promoting the very details in the text -- then who could be more happy "than you" to see "the text" being posted.

(now that is funny)