Was Adam Elected to Salvation or Damnation?

[Dr. Walter]

We do not have to be careful about saying it if that is our own experience. What we have to be careful about is saying the doctrine or teaching is true BECAUSE of our experience! If the doctrine is true there is nothing wrong with confirming it by experience. If the doctrine is false there is no experience that can validate it. The bottom line is the Scripture and experiences can be brought in as complimentary but not as evidence for the truth of it.

And my brother caught up in Mellinial Exclusion would say the same thing.

Do you see my point?

We must be careful when declaring a doctrine as "God revealed this to me".

Have you experienced BobRyan on this board yet? He is a SDA and he defends Ellen White's declarations of Divine revelation because he believes that her revelations are not "new scripture" but merely confirm what has already been written.

Once upon a time I would have told you that God had revealed to me that the King James Bible is the only bible endorsed by God. I truly felt that God showed this to me through much study on the subject.

Just be careful when you decide to bring up the "God personally told me so" in a Christian debate setting on certain topics of debate. It doesn't go over well.

You know, there are some very sincere CHristians who would say that God revealed to them that your view of election is wrong. What does that leave us with?

We have the scriptures and we have the Holy Spirit to teach us. But we all have a little problem called imperfection still tainting our walk with Christ.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1579974#post1579974
To be or not to be, that is the question.

For all those like DW believing in unconditional election, here is the question. Was Adam elected to salvation or damnation?

Is there a doctor in the house?

Percho: Is one elected to salvation or elected to rule and serve with Christ in the kingdom of God?

HP: Absolutely, but certainly in accordance to the conditions God has set forth to receive salvation. Election, as it relates to salvation, is indeed conditional.

Percho: Is God saving the world today or calling out a people for his name and what is the purpose for these people who will carry the name of God?

HP: Certainly God is calling according to the conditions of salvation such as repentance and faith. Our purpose is to bear fruit and to live and walk holy before Him as salt and light in this ungodly world. Certainly that thought could be expanded.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
Percho: Is one elected to salvation or elected to rule and serve with Christ in the kingdom of God?


HP: I should have said, both, but neither apart from the stated conditions.

If that does not answer your question, just ask it again in possibly a different manner. I will try and give it another shot.

 

[RAdam]

Here's one question for everyone: how will you get to heaven?

 

[RAdam]

HP: You forget one not so minor detail. God did not punish or praise Israel for their deliverance either. God directly holds man accountable for their moral intents, showing clearly man is responsible for them. Israel was not held responsible for the deliverance God prophesied. God did some things apart from conditions, yet salvation has clear set conditions, without which no one can or shall be saved. Take repentance for instance. Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Salvation and the deliverance of Israel from Egyptian bondage are apples and oranges.

Actually, no they are not. The one is a picture of the other. But beyond that obvious point, deliverance from Egyptian bondage shows how God works. Here is an action God always planned to do. He planned to do it before the world began, and He told man He planned to do it circa 400 years prior to the event. Yet, although it was always purposed by God to take place, there was a time before it was actually accomplished that the Israelites were in bondage.

In like manner, though God has always purposed to save His elect, that doesn't mean they were always saved in an actual sense.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

RAdam: In like manner, though God has always purposed to save His elect, that doesn't mean they were always saved in an actual sense.

HP: Because there may be some limited connections that can be rightfully drawn between salvation and the deliverance from the bondage of Egypt, one can not simply extrapolate that because one may not have had conditions the other cannot either, or that since both were forms of deliverance the conditions for deliverance was the same in both cases.

I can tell you one thing upon th eauthority of the Word of God, if man fails to repent. exercise faith in God, and continue faithful until the end, they will not be found in Christ in the last day. The same cannot be said for deliverance from the bondage of Egypt.

 

[RAdam]

HP: Because there may be some limited connections that can be rightfully drawn between salvation and the deliverance from the bondage of Egypt, one can not simply extrapolate that because one may not have had conditions the other cannot either, or that since both were forms of deliverance the conditions for deliverance was the same in both cases.

I can tell you one thing upon th eauthority of the Word of God, if man fails to repent. exercise faith in God, and continue faithful until the end, they will not be found in Christ in the last day. The same cannot be said for deliverance from the bondage of Egypt.

Actually, both were unconditional on the part of the party being delivered.

To what extent must a child of God exercise faith in God? To what extent must a child of God "continue faithful until the end?" Please give me scripture.

Also, please answer the question I asked: how will you get to heaven?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

RAdam: Actually, both were unconditional on the part of the party being delivered.

HP: Not so. Scripture has set forth clear conditions to be saved, without which none will be saved.

RAdam: To what extent must a child of God exercise faith in God?

HP: To the extent God accepts it as faith and the Holy Spirit testifies to ones heart they are a child of God.

RAdam: To what extent must a child of God "continue faithful until the end?" Please give me scripture.

HP: To the extent your heart does not condemn you and the Holy Spirit witnesses to your heart you are being honest about your heart condition.
1Jo 3:19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 ¶ For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

RAdam: Also, please answer the question I asked: how will you get to heaven?

HP: I have not taken that ride yet, so you will have to ask me after I arrive. I would surmise in a vertical fashion hopefully in the arms of an angel. :thumbs::godisgood:

 

[quantumfaith]

Actually, both were unconditional on the part of the party being delivered.

To what extent must a child of God exercise faith in God? To what extent must a child of God "continue faithful until the end?" Please give me scripture.

Also, please answer the question I asked: how will you get to heaven?

Romans 10:9-11

If you declare with your mouth "Jesus is Lord" and believe in you heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As scripture says, "Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame."

 

[Jedi Knight]

When you study God's Word, the Holy Spirit confirms the truth to your mind and heart as well (1 Jn. 2:29).

Amen to that.....we have a supernatural teacher on the inside and He can reveal truths that the natural man "or unwilling" cannot receive. Study...absolutely and does God visit us and manifest himself to us? Sure does.....through confirmation to our hearts and mind by the Holy Spirit...the spirit of truth. John 16:15 That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK, the truth is that many cults might give the same answer as well as many that in the end will find themselves deceived. How might you test the truth to see if in fact your interpretation of Scripture might be in accordance with truth? The shoe cobbler might say he is the best shoe cobbler in town, but does that make it so? You might say you have the true interpretation of a text and all others are deceived, but does that make it so?

 

[Jedi Knight]

JK, the truth is that many cults might give the same answer as well as many that in the end

That's because Satan will always try to counterfeit experiencing God BUT that does not invalidate God revealing truth to his own.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK: That's because Satan will always try to counterfeit experiencing God BUT that does not invalidate God revealing truth to his own.

But how do you know with absolute certainty that you are one that will in the end be found of His own, and not simply end up deceived as the Scriptures say 'many' will end up? Have you opened and seen the Lamb's Book of Life and read your own name wriiten down???? Even still could you be one of those that the possibility exists could be blotted out of that book as God clearly indicates that some might in fact be blotted out???

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW: Being "chosen TO salvation" presupposes a previous lost condition as unfallen mankind need no salvation.

HP: But then you have just blown away your argument of unconditional election. If I am reading you correctly, you must be a sinner to be elected to salvation, correct? Remember, you said "a PREVIOUS lost condition."

That would make being a sinner the condition of election, therefore if God is going to save Adam and Eve as He elected, God would also have to elect their sinful state as well, PRIOR to electing them to salvation, seeing they had at the time of election neither done evil or good according to your stated and implied view of election.

Are you still certain you want to stay with your stated position???????

 

[Jedi Knight]

But how do you know with absolute certainty that you are one that will in the end be found of His own, and not simply end up deceived as the Scriptures say 'many' will end up?

Because the Holy Spirit bears witness to my spirit I am a child of God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK: Because the Holy Spirit bears witness to my spirit I am a child of God.

HP: And some say they have faith without works as well. What evidence supports the notion that you are saved and not simply deceived? I am NOT suggesting that you are deceived. I am just trying to get you to see that even a member of a cult could say that the Holy Spirit bears them witness. Morman’s do it all the time. Does their testimony guarantee their salvation? Again, I am NOT trying in any manner to compare you to a cult either. I am trying to get you to see that there must be other evidence that one is saved besides the things you say if one is going to examine themselves to see if they are of the faith. Scripture tells us to do that does it not?

 

[Amy.G]

That would make being a sinner the condition of election,......

The only "condition" for election is faith in Christ.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


All those who place their faith in Christ become "in Him". God decreed before the foundation of the world that all those who placed their faith in Christ would be elected to be saved.

No, Adam did not know Christ. OT saints who believed God received imputed righteousness from God and went to Abraham's bosom (paradise) to await the atonement of Christ.

 

[DHK]

Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
To be or not to be, that is the question.

For all those like DW believing in unconditional election, here is the question. Was Adam elected to salvation or damnation?

You have asked this question a number of times on this board. It is one of the most ridiculous and bizarre questions that I have read or heard.

"When my child was born was he (I saw the ultrasound) elected to be part of my family? Would he have my last name?" Because I knew before the child was born that he would make his entrance into this world in a certain specific month and year, with a specific name already chosen before the total formation of its body, was he therefore elected to my family?

That is how much sense your question concerning Adam makes.
God created Adam. Adam was God's child. He was always God's child. He always had salvation. He could never lose what he always had. His sin separated him from his fellowship with God. But God did not disown him from being his child. He never had to be "saved." He always was God's child. God created Him. There is no question about that.

 

[Jedi Knight]

HP: And some say they have faith without works as well. What evidence supports the notion that you are saved and not simply deceived? I am NOT suggesting that you are deceived. I am just trying to get you to see that even a member of a cult could say that the Holy Spirit bears them witness. Morman’s do it all the time. Does their testimony guarantee their salvation? Again, I am NOT trying in any manner to compare you to a cult either. I am trying to get you to see that there must be other evidence that one is saved besides the things you say if one is going to examine themselves to see if they are of the faith. Scripture tells us to do that does it not?

So do you follow the Mormons or JW"s? So why do you compare Christianity to that eater? You can live in a cloud of doubt and skeptical or go back to what the bible illustrates. John 10:5 is a favorite of mine because it says sheep will not follow after such things. If you heard the Pharisees debating Jesus...who was right? Well here is the test results.....Jesus says "He who is of the truth listen to my voice."

 

[Jedi Knight]

God created Adam. Adam was God's child. He was always God's child. He always had salvation. He could never lose what he always had. His sin separated him from his fellowship with God. But God did not disown him from being his child. He never had to be "saved." He always was God's child. God created Him. There is no question about that.

That's right...Adam was kicked out of the garden but not out of his relationship with the Lord. God was merciful and didn't kill Adam and Eve when they fell.