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Was Adam Elected to Salvation or Damnation?

Amy.G

New Member
And some say they have faith without works as well.
No one has said that. It is unbiblical. Faith without works is dead. Good works are the result of faith in Christ and our salvation.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


But....works cannot save.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:



What evidence supports the notion that you are saved and not simply deceived?

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
 
Amy: No one has said that. It is unbiblical. Faith without works is dead. Good works are the result of faith in Christ and our salvation.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


But....works cannot save.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

HP: It is clearly implied by James is it not? Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

True, no work of man can save from the least of sins, but neither will any be saved apart from forming intents of the will in agreement to the commands of repentance, faith, and continued obedience. We are not saved by our works but no one will be saved apart from works either.
Quote:
HP: What evidence supports the notion that you are saved and not simply deceived?


Amy: 1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


HP: Certainly we can indeed know, but I am trying to get us to see that if our faith is real and in tact that there are some other evidences that must be evident as well that serve to validate the faith or belief we say we have.
 
JK: Adam was kicked out of the garden but not out of his relationship with the Lord

HP: Call it what you want to, but they were denied access to the tree of life. If that is not a break in the relationship they once had, the Pope is not a Catholic.
 

Amy.G

New Member


HP: It is clearly implied by James is it not? Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?



No, that is not what James is saying. He is saying that our works are the evidence of our faith. The difference between the devils believing and a Christian believing is that the devils will NOT have good works, but a child of God will.




True, no work of man can save from the least of sins, but neither will any be saved apart from forming intents of the will in agreement to the commands of repentance, faith, and continued obedience. We are not saved by our works but no one will be saved apart from works either.

There is no command for continued obedience. All Christians have times of disobedience, but that doesn't mean we lose our salvation.

You say "no one will be saved apart from works". You do not believe Paul?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

What do you think "NOT" of yourselves mean? It means not of works. Works do NOT save. It couldn't be any plainer.
 

DHK: God created Adam. Adam was God's child. He was always God's child. He always had salvation.

HP: That is simply unproven conjecture. No man devoid of access to the Tree of Life, has any part of a proper relationship with God. I would be of the opinion that Adam got right with God again, but that is simply my opinion and not founded on the Word of God and its testimony as written. There is no biblical evidence that I know of that Adam positively made it in.

DHK: He could never lose what he always had.

HP: He did in fact lose what he had. He once had access to the tree of life and lost it. Satan had access to the throne of God and fell from his exalted position along with many other angels. Saul fell as well as did Judas, who "by transgression fell." Ac 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
 

Jedi Knight

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter


HP: Call it what you want to, but they were denied access to the tree of life. If that is not a break in the relationship they once had, the Pope is not a Catholic.
God never forsook them. I heard a joke once that Adams kids asked him "how come we don't live in the garden?". Adam said, "because your mother ate us out of house and home!". :smilewinkgrin:
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>

HP: That is simply unproven conjecture. No man devoid of access to the Tree of Life, has any part of a proper relationship with God. I would be of the opinion that Adam got right with God again, but that is simply my opinion and not founded on the Word of God and its testimony as written. There is no biblical evidence that I know of that Adam positively made it in.
What conjecture? Adam was created in God's own image and in his likeness. Adam was God's child. Adam did not need to be born or re-born; he was created. Adam didn't need to be saved; he was created. Your arguments make no sense. In order to be saved he had to have something to be saved from. He was perfect, created in a state of innocence. What Adam's sin did was break his fellowship with God. Adam still remained God's child. He always was God's child and there is no evidence in the Bible to say that he wasn't.
HP: He did in fact lose what he had. He once had access to the tree of life and lost it.
And so? What does that mean to you? What has that got to do with Adam's salvation? Nothing! It simply means that he lost blessing through disobedience. The Bible says "every idle word that a man shall speak he shall so give account in the day of judgment." Shall you not also lose blessing in the future for any idle words spoken or written on this board. That is simply an example. Disobedience in the life of a believer does not mean loss of salvation. It means loss of reward, loss of fellowship in this life. but never loss of salvation. And so it was with Adam. He never lost salvation. He was created with it and therefore could not lose it.
Satan had access to the throne of God and fell from his exalted position along with many other angels.
Apples and oranges
Are we speaking of anthropology and soteriology, or:
Are we speaking of angeology and soteriology? Which one. You can't mix the two.
Saul fell as well as did Judas, who "by transgression fell." Ac 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
No, Neither Saul nor Judas "fell" as they were were never saved in the first place. There is no such thing as falling from a state of grace (where grace means salvation). One cannot lose their salvation. Your proof-texts do not bear your points out. They are Scripture so obviously taken out of context.
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
A heart of unbelief is evil. Do you have a heart of unbelief when it comes to the Biblical doctrine of eternal security?
 

Steadfast Fred

Active Member
No, Neither Saul nor Judas "fell" as they were were never saved in the first place. There is no such thing as falling from a state of grace (where grace means salvation). One cannot lose their salvation. Your proof-texts do not bear your points out. They are Scripture so obviously taken out of context. ?

Amen! Jesus said His sheep will never perish. Therefore, it is an impossibility for them to wander off without Him going after them and leading them back into the fold.
 

Eric B

Active Member
Site Supporter
What conjecture? Adam was created in God's own image and in his likeness. Adam was God's child. Adam did not need to be born or re-born; he was created. Adam didn't need to be saved; he was created. Your arguments make no sense. In order to be saved he had to have something to be saved from. He was perfect, created in a state of innocence. What Adam's sin did was break his fellowship with God. Adam still remained God's child. He always was God's child and there is no evidence in the Bible to say that he wasn't.

And so? What does that mean to you? What has that got to do with Adam's salvation? Nothing! It simply means that he lost blessing through disobedience. The Bible says "every idle word that a man shall speak he shall so give account in the day of judgment." Shall you not also lose blessing in the future for any idle words spoken or written on this board. That is simply an example. Disobedience in the life of a believer does not mean loss of salvation. It means loss of reward, loss of fellowship in this life. but never loss of salvation. And so it was with Adam. He never lost salvation. He was created with it and therefore could not lose it.
OK; so that's the rationale! Or at least one of them.
I remembered years ago seeing one of the cult books condemning the Jehovah's Witnesses for saying Adam was lost (in addition to the rest of their doctrines), and the argument seemed to be that their wearing of the animal cloths God provided for them constituted their "receiving of God's saving grace" (i.e. animals were "sacrificed" to make the cloths to cover their "nakedness").

What you're saying is different from that, and I had never heard that idea before.

Perhaps it seems ironic that he is the one whose sin brought eternal death to everyone else, but that he himself would get off scott free without even having to repent like everyone else.

Isn't there a difference between him being a child of God by creation, as opposed to spiritually? That's a similar assumption as the Israelites made regarding their physical lineage.
 

RAdam

New Member


HP: Not so. Scripture has set forth clear conditions to be saved, without which none will be saved.


HP: To the extent God accepts it as faith and the Holy Spirit testifies to ones heart they are a child of God.


HP: To the extent your heart does not condemn you and the Holy Spirit witnesses to your heart you are being honest about your heart condition.
1Jo 3:19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 ¶ For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.


HP: I have not taken that ride yet, so you will have to ask me after I arrive. I would surmise in a vertical fashion hopefully in the arms of an angel. :thumbs::godisgood:

He said if our heart condemn, God is greater than our heart. In other words, even if we feel condemned in our heart, we are still saved because God is greater than our heart. Again, give me a scripture which tells me what level of perserverance in needed for me to end up heaven. This is obviously important if you are correct. In that case, there should be abundant scripture.
 

RAdam

New Member
Romans 10:9-11

If you declare with your mouth "Jesus is Lord" and believe in you heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As scripture says, "Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame."

Alright, let's look at this. One believes in his heart unto salvation. Then he confesses with his mouth to justification. However, I read a few verses later where whosoever calleth on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Then Paul says that they cannot call on whom they have not believed. So which is it. Is believing in my heart what saves me, or is how I am born again? Or is it confession? What if I believe in my heart but don't confess? What happens then?
 

Steadfast Fred

Active Member
Alright, let's look at this. One believes in his heart unto salvation. Then he confesses with his mouth to justification. However, I read a few verses later where whosoever calleth on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Then Paul says that they cannot call on whom they have not believed. So which is it. Is believing in my heart what saves me, or is how I am born again? Or is it confession? What if I believe in my heart but don't confess? What happens then?
One that believes in one's heart the message of Salvation will call upon the Lord. Paul's statement in Romans 10:8,9 and his statement in Romans 10:13 are connected.

The thief on the cross asked Jesus to remember him when He came into His kingdom because He believe in Jesus which prompted the audible request.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
OK; so that's the rationale! Or at least one of them.
I remembered years ago seeing one of the cult books condemning the Jehovah's Witnesses for saying Adam was lost (in addition to the rest of their doctrines), and the argument seemed to be that their wearing of the animal cloths God provided for them constituted their "receiving of God's saving grace" (i.e. animals were "sacrificed" to make the cloths to cover their "nakedness").

What you're saying is different from that, and I had never heard that idea before.

Perhaps it seems ironic that he is the one whose sin brought eternal death to everyone else, but that he himself would get off scott free without even having to repent like everyone else.
But he didn't get off scott free. His life was drastically changed. He was chased out of the garden of Eden. He was denied access to the Tree of Life, which presumably could have given him eternal life on this earth. Now, he had to toil and work with the sweat of his brow that the earth would bring forth its fruit. His wife would bear children in pain. He would have the rule over her. He would have the responsibility to take care of the earth, to rule and have dominion over it; whereas before that time it was friendly and there was little he had to do, now it had become more of a hostile environment.
From this point onward salvation could only be obtained through faith sacrificial blood sacrifice as God directed.
There was repentance. God himself sacrificed the first animal; the first bloody sacrifice on behalf of Adam and Eve. This had nothing to do with climate, warmth, nakedness, etc. It was the fact that blood had to be shed for their sin. Inherent in this sacrifice was their repentance. If you study the names of their subsequent children you find the hope of a coming Messiah. Even in the midst of the Fall, in the words directed to Eve (Gen.3:15) we have the first promise of a Messiah.
Isn't there a difference between him being a child of God by creation, as opposed to spiritually? That's a similar assumption as the Israelites made regarding their physical lineage.
God's promise was two-fold:
"Thou shalt surely die."
1. He immediately died spiritually.
2. He died physically hundreds of years after that.
Death means separation. When he died spiritually he was spiritually separated from God. What brought him back into fellowship with God, was that animal that was sacrificed by God himself.
"Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins."
Adam was never lost. He never had anything to lose except his relationship with God which comes through disobedience. Every child loses this same fellowship with their parents through disobedience. Through correction and repentance it is restored. Often there are consequences involved, as there was for Adam, and as we have seen, for the entire human race.
 

RAdam

New Member
One that believes in one's heart the message of Salvation will call upon the Lord. Paul's statement in Romans 10:8,9 and his statement in Romans 10:13 are connected.

The thief on the cross asked Jesus to remember him when He came into His kingdom because He believe in Jesus which prompted the audible request.

Really? John said in John 12 that there were many that beleived in Jesus Christ but wouldn't confess Him because they were afraid of being put out of the synagogue.

Again, one must believe before they can call on the Lord. So which is it that saves one? Belief or calling. The bible says one clearly preceeds the other, and John says one can believe without calling.
 

Steadfast Fred

Active Member
Really? John said in John 12 that there were many that beleived in Jesus Christ but wouldn't confess Him because they were afraid of being put out of the synagogue.

Again, one must believe before they can call on the Lord. So which is it that saves one? Belief or calling. The bible says one clearly preceeds the other, and John says one can believe without calling.
Those in John 12 did not have an acting belief as the belief in Romans 10:9,10
 
Eric B: Perhaps it seems ironic that he is the one whose sin brought eternal death to everyone else, but that he himself would get off scott free without even having to repent like everyone else.

HP: Now there is one that is thinking for a needed change. :thumbs:

DHK fails miserably in his responses to present anything that would show how the notion that Adam did not fall when he sinned is true. It is absurd to believe that Adam sinned and did not fall neither did he receive the ’penalty’ for sin, which by the way is NOT physical death but rather is eternal separation from God. To then believe that one can pass to all his posterity a nature that he could not have possessed, (for if Adam did possess a sin nature he would have of necessity received the same penalty all are bound to receive, i.e., total separation from God for eternity apart from repentance and salvation.

Keep thinking Eric! It will serve you well in life and in eternity to come.:thumbs:
 
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RAdam

New Member
Those in John 12 did not have an acting belief as the belief in Romans 10:9,10

What is "acting belief?" The bible never uses that term. It only speaks of believers. Man makes categories for believers based on his own ideas and then tries to stick people into those categories. Scriptures gives you no liscence for that. The bible says they believed but they wouldn't confess. The bible says believers are born of God. The people in John 12 are born again according to the bible.
 

Steadfast Fred

Active Member
What is "acting belief?" The bible never uses that term. It only speaks of believers. Man makes categories for believers based on his own ideas and then tries to stick people into those categories. Scriptures gives you no liscence for that. The bible says they believed but they wouldn't confess. The bible says believers are born of God. The people in John 12 are born again according to the bible.
Acting belief is a belief that produces fruit.

I can say I believe a kitchen chair is a good solid chair that will hold my weight, but if I never sit down in that chair, I have not truly proven that belief.

One can say they believe a new bridge will support the weight of their car or truck. But if they never drive over that bridge, what has their faith proven.

One can say he or she believes in Jesus Christ, but if there is no manifestation of godly fruit, have they a true faith in Christ?

James said that faith without works is dead, being alone. Read the context of John 12. What does it say concerning the faith of those in the Chapter?

The context of John 12 reveals that the people that believed on Jesus did not believe on Him for who He was, but for what He did. They had witnessed that Lazarus had been raised from the dead. They saw Lazarus and could not deny His being brought back to life. But they only saw Christ as a miracle worker... not as the Son of God.
 
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quantumfaith

Active Member
Alright, let's look at this. One believes in his heart unto salvation. Then he confesses with his mouth to justification. However, I read a few verses later where whosoever calleth on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Then Paul says that they cannot call on whom they have not believed. So which is it. Is believing in my heart what saves me, or is how I am born again? Or is it confession? What if I believe in my heart but don't confess? What happens then?

Could it be that 10:13 is accentuating his prior attached statement concerning Jews and Gentiles, "Now there is not difference between the Jew and the Gentile". Seems to me, that is a recurring theme, if not THE theme of Pauls writing in Romans.
 

Steadfast Fred

Active Member
John 12:42 (KJV) Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
John 12:43 (KJV) For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

The chief rulers were not saved, although they believed on Jesus. Jesus said elsewhere that those that deny Him before man, He would deny before His Father.

The chief rulers loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. They could not act upon the belief they had and because of that would not confess their belief. They were ashamed of Christ.

Many are like that today. They will say they love Christ, but will not tell their friends such for fear of losing their friends. Many will profess with their lips a love for God but their hearts are far from them. Their hearts will not allow them to deny themselves, taking up their cross to follow Christ. They would rather be pleasers of man rather than God.

Their belief in Jesus is not a true, acting belief.
 
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