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Was Cain the first person to be born?
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
Genesis 4:v.16-17
That passage says nothing about " countless people in the Garden of Eden,"
It is easy to see that there is confusion in our discussion, the subject is still in the dark, but let's put light on the environment, just as God said, "Let there be light, and there was light."
Chomper76 wrote above : "There is a Sumerian kings list written 1200 years before Genesis that claims long lifespan of kings. Likely influenced the author of Genesis during Babylonian captivity.
You replied him, saying: Hoping to shed more light than heat
Reading you both, I focused in the post of Chamber76, who said "Sumerian kings list 1200 years before Genesis ..."
Then I wrote: There were countless people in the Garden of Eden, the children of God, ruled by a Cherub, and there was also a population outside Eden, which certainly were not worthy to dwell to the Garden of God. - I said this because I believe there was a population outside of Eden, i was not surprised with the theory of Chomper 76, for me in the same time there was an specific and exclusive population in Eden, ruled by a Cherub, there was also a population out of the Eden, for exemple, the Sumerians cited by Chomper76. -
Again: You said: "Hoping to shed more light than heat"
Well, I tried to do what you asked, focused specifically in the existence of a people outside of the Garden of Eden, as is written in Genesis 4:v.16-17.
And I tried, by analogy, to shed more light in this theory, saying the same will happen now in the establishment of God's kingdom, the next world, as Jesus said (Luke 20: 25-36), and those who were not find worthy to enter in the Kingdom of God, they will be out of it, whose environment is called by Scripture as hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched, and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Mark 9:v.44 and Isa.66:v.24
That said, I will try to show that there was a population in the Garden of Eden, whose land was ruled by a Cherub. But you need to understand the linguage of Scriptures, because God shows the things by allegories and they must be understood through the Spirit of God, and by the spirit of discernment and understanding.
About the Cherub, the ruler of Eden, and population ruled by him,
the Word of the Lord did come to the prophet Ezekiel, saying by allegories: Ezekiel 31:7-9
7 Thus was he - the ruler of Eden, the Cherub - fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters. (waters according Scriptures are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues - Rev.17:v.15).
8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide HIM: the fir TREES were not like HIS boughs, and the chestnut TREES were not like his branches; nor any TREE in the Garden of God was like unto HIM in his beauty.
9 I have made HIM fair by the multitude of his branches: so that ALL THE TREES OF EDEN, that were in the garden of God, envied HIM. - Oh yes, ALL THE TREES OF EDEN ENVIED HIM - IT MEANS all the population of Eden ENVIED him, the Cherub. -
Ezekiel 28:v.14-15
14 Thou art the anointed Cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering Cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Chomper76 wrote: Likely influenced the author of Genesis during Babylonian captivity.
Chomper76 must study better about Scriptures. The author of Genesis is Moses, he did write Genesis around 1000 years before Babylonian captivity, under a deep revelation of God unto Moses about His plan of restoration of all things that were dissolved after the rebellion in the Garden of Eden.
Hope this post may contribute for more light as you asked, remembering we are speaking of celestial things described in the Word of God, by the way, the Word is God, the invisible God.
Josephus had a footnote stating they had 56 children according to Jewish tradition. I do think Cain and Abel were the first two, however.
But we know from Noah's genealogy that Seth was not born until Adam was 130 years old (Gen. 5:3-4). There's no possible way Seth was the third child. More likely Seth was born soon after the death of Abel, which means Abel may have been over 125 years old before he was killed. This opens up the possibility that Adam, Cain and Abel had large families and many descendants prior to Abel's death.
Just some thoughts.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
As I understand my Bible, it's clear to me that Adam and Eve had children before the fall in the garden of Eden, and that Cain was the firstborn after our exile from the garden. Here's why (or you can simply watch my short video about the question
):
"Everyone wants to know where he got his wife. That is the most asked question of disbelievers. Likewise, what avengers did Cain fear because of Abel’s murder? The classic answer is an appeal to Genesis 5:4 where Adam had begotten many children after the birth of Cain and Abel, which would have been ready to avenge Abel’s death. The problem with that answer is that Genesis 4:25-26 and 5:3-4 seem to clearly teach that Seth was the next son to be born with no intervening births, and with his birth occuring after Abel’s death. Eve would not have called Seth another seed instead of Abel (4:25) had she had other sons. Her words were not merely a statement of replacement [see notes under 4:25]; she was referring to the promised seed of 3:15 which any son of hers could have fulfilled, as Cain could have, as indeed she first thought. Once Cain was gone, and Abel was killed, she had no more sons! Why else would Seth be singled out in 5:3?! His birth is spoken of in the same manner as the birth of all the named sons in chapter 5 which are all firstborn sons, precisely because there was no son left unto Adam! Everytime the expression begat sons and daughters is used in Genesis 5, it refers to children born after the named firstborn son: so is the case with Seth. While it’s true that God had told Eve I will greatly multiply …thy conception yet it seems that that multiplied conception only kicks in after Abel’s death and only after Seth’s birth (5:4), implying that the multiplication kicked in slowly, as indeed as the curses of chapter 3 did. So where did Cain get his wife?
First, nothing in the Holy Bible says that Cain was the first child of Adam, only that he was the first
child after the fall. Genesis 3:20 [see notes there] says that Eve was the mother of all living before Cain is born in Genesis 4:1. Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. The second clause is not Adam’s words but the Holy Ghost’s explanation of Adam’s words. It wasn’t faith on Adam’s part, it was a description of Eve’s current state at that point. That is confirmed by the fact that Adam had already named Eve before now, when he had called her Woman in 2:23. He here gives her another name because she had now borne children.
Genesis 3:16 also clearly implies that Eve had already borne children before Cain: Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. The implication is strengthened by noting that Adam’s parallel punishment was also related to a pre-existing condition: the produce of the ground.
Innocent children in the garden of Eden would explain an otherwise unexplainable verse concerning the pre-incarnate Christ: Pro 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. In context, that could only match Adam and Eve and their children in their pre-fall condition in the garden. The statement that God drove out the man (Gen.3:24) would apply not only to Adam, but all his kin, just as it includes Eve. Second, the fact that Moses writes Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh in 2:24 on the heels of Adam meeting Eve in 2:23 is further indication that Adam and Eve and been fruitful (1:28) as commanded, before the fall. You must keep in mind that Adam and Eve did not “wait” an X number of years before dropping the contraception and “deciding” to have kids – they weren’t a 21st century Western couple. There were no pain, no peril, and no burdensome responsibilities before the fall so giving birth to children was nothing but pure pleasure and there would have been no reason for them to wait on fulfilling God’s very first command to man. This said, Eve’s post-fall exclamation that I have gotten a man from the LORD (Gen.4:1) as she thinks him to be the promised seed (Gen.3:15) takes on another hue. Eve is not rejoicing in her first son, she is rejoicing in her first son after the fall whom she expects to reverse the fall. As to what happened that pre-fall progeny, see 3:20. Third, people assume that the expression every one (Gen.4:14) and whosoever (Gen.4:15) excludes the gods [fallen angels] of Genesis 3:5 and refers only to men. Cain may well have been worried about a people that were not mere men. It was precisely these gods which Adam had been entrusted of God to keep the garden against, back in Genesis 2:15, long before Cain was born."
If you can poke scriptural holes in this line of thinking please go ahead; I wish to make sure that my position is correct.
"Everyone wants to know where he got his wife. That is the most asked question of disbelievers. Likewise, what avengers did Cain fear because of Abel’s murder? The classic answer is an appeal to Genesis 5:4 where Adam had begotten many children after the birth of Cain and Abel, which would have been ready to avenge Abel’s death. The problem with that answer is that Genesis 4:25-26 and 5:3-4 seem to clearly teach that Seth was the next son to be born with no intervening births, and with his birth occuring after Abel’s death. Eve would not have called Seth another seed instead of Abel (4:25) had she had other sons. Her words were not merely a statement of replacement [see notes under 4:25]; she was referring to the promised seed of 3:15 which any son of hers could have fulfilled, as Cain could have, as indeed she first thought. Once Cain was gone, and Abel was killed, she had no more sons! Why else would Seth be singled out in 5:3?! His birth is spoken of in the same manner as the birth of all the named sons in chapter 5 which are all firstborn sons, precisely because there was no son left unto Adam! Everytime the expression begat sons and daughters is used in Genesis 5, it refers to children born after the named firstborn son: so is the case with Seth. While it’s true that God had told Eve I will greatly multiply …thy conception yet it seems that that multiplied conception only kicks in after Abel’s death and only after Seth’s birth (5:4), implying that the multiplication kicked in slowly, as indeed as the curses of chapter 3 did. So where did Cain get his wife?
First, nothing in the Holy Bible says that Cain was the first child of Adam, only that he was the first
child after the fall. Genesis 3:20 [see notes there] says that Eve was the mother of all living before Cain is born in Genesis 4:1. Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. The second clause is not Adam’s words but the Holy Ghost’s explanation of Adam’s words. It wasn’t faith on Adam’s part, it was a description of Eve’s current state at that point. That is confirmed by the fact that Adam had already named Eve before now, when he had called her Woman in 2:23. He here gives her another name because she had now borne children.
Genesis 3:16 also clearly implies that Eve had already borne children before Cain: Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. The implication is strengthened by noting that Adam’s parallel punishment was also related to a pre-existing condition: the produce of the ground.
Innocent children in the garden of Eden would explain an otherwise unexplainable verse concerning the pre-incarnate Christ: Pro 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. In context, that could only match Adam and Eve and their children in their pre-fall condition in the garden. The statement that God drove out the man (Gen.3:24) would apply not only to Adam, but all his kin, just as it includes Eve. Second, the fact that Moses writes Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh in 2:24 on the heels of Adam meeting Eve in 2:23 is further indication that Adam and Eve and been fruitful (1:28) as commanded, before the fall. You must keep in mind that Adam and Eve did not “wait” an X number of years before dropping the contraception and “deciding” to have kids – they weren’t a 21st century Western couple. There were no pain, no peril, and no burdensome responsibilities before the fall so giving birth to children was nothing but pure pleasure and there would have been no reason for them to wait on fulfilling God’s very first command to man. This said, Eve’s post-fall exclamation that I have gotten a man from the LORD (Gen.4:1) as she thinks him to be the promised seed (Gen.3:15) takes on another hue. Eve is not rejoicing in her first son, she is rejoicing in her first son after the fall whom she expects to reverse the fall. As to what happened that pre-fall progeny, see 3:20. Third, people assume that the expression every one (Gen.4:14) and whosoever (Gen.4:15) excludes the gods [fallen angels] of Genesis 3:5 and refers only to men. Cain may well have been worried about a people that were not mere men. It was precisely these gods which Adam had been entrusted of God to keep the garden against, back in Genesis 2:15, long before Cain was born."
If you can poke scriptural holes in this line of thinking please go ahead; I wish to make sure that my position is correct.
Do you think Adam & Eve lasted more than a month in the Garden of Eden? Why should Scripture list all of their children since the three were the only ones important to us? The increased difficulty in childbirth was part of the curse and does not imply previous children but is a warning of what the future held.
While I appreciate the effort, it actually doesn't seem that way when you notice that the Noah's genealogy (starting in 5:1) is from different toledoth (accounts, histories). Genesis is divided into accounts usually marked by "these are the generations of...." The genealogy that records Seth's birth is a record of the line of descendants from Adam to Noah. It's a different account from the previous which records Cain and Abel's history (all of these toledoth were compiled by Moses, of course, into one book). You'll notice, also, that the sons mentions are born at various ages, indicating they were likely not firstborn sons, but rather linking sons (sons that link Adam to Noah). And of course we know for a fact that Seth is not the firstborn.
The most important thing you'll notice is that Seth is not born until 130 years after Creation. If Cain and Abel were born soon after the banishment, that means that Adam and Eve did not procreate again for over 100 years until Seth's birth. That's just didn't happen. Eve was likely the most beautiful woman ever created. There is no way they took a century off. Crazy.
The genealogy of Genesis 5 is never meant to record the order of brothers in a family being born. It's not a record of firstborn sons. It's only purpose is to show the sons that link Noah and Adam. (there are no generation gaps implied in the genealogy either.)
What almost certainly happened was that Adam and Even gave birth to Cain and Abel and many other sons and daughters prior to Seth's birth. Both Cain and Abel already had wives and descendants by the time Cain killed Abel. That explains why Cain feared for his life, and why Cain never actually is said to have found a wife after Abel's death. He already had one.
What is more, Jewish tradition according to Josephus tells us that both Cain and his wife were banished from the land of Eden after Cain killed Abel. While not authoritative, it shows that ancient interpreters never saw a Cain's wife dilemma.
Bottom line, there is no need for prelapsarian children. Postlapsarian children between Abel and Seth works much better considering the 130 year time gap.
All that said, I think we probably agree on much more than we disagree on.
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George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Ok so let me concentrate on this most basic aspect then. I don't follow you. What am I missing? Is it that you're assuming that Adam and Eve spent a very short time within the garden?
No, that's something you're focusing on to try to reconcile the Text with some apparent "difficulties."
I'm telling you to focus on 2 things. 1) The timespan between creation and Seth's birth (130 years), and 2) the nature of the genealogy starting in Genesis 5. That's a lot of time, and the genealogy is not a list of firstborns (or second or thirds for that matter).
There is no reason to assume that the sons and daughters "also" born, mentioned in Gen. 5, were not between the births of Cain and Abel and the birth of Seth. To not do so is to assume that Adam and Eve abstained for over a century after the birth of Abel (since Seth was Abel's replacement 130 years after creation). It's not plausible.
To put it simply, there is no need for prelapsarian births in the Garden. The Text is completely reconcilable without it. You can speculate about the possibility, but it's kind of irrelevant, with nothing remotely in the Text to suggest it.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Indeed, and I tackled that issue
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry but I'm honestly not getting how my view ends up with the implication that "Adam and Eve abstained for over a century after the birth of Abel" . I'm sure it makes sense to you but I'm just not seeing how you get there unless you're assuming that Adam and Eve spent a very short time in the garden.
Let me ask you this: if Genesis 5 is indeed a list of firstborn sons, would my view still imply that Adam and Eve abstained for over a century?
No worries, let me expound. I'm not saying your view in particular ignores the 130 years, I'm saying, it's something often missed by readers, but important when tackling this issue of Cain's wife, and Cain's fear of human revenge.
2 Points. Seth is not born until 130 years after creation, and Seth is Abel's replacement. We don't get both nuggets of that information from chapter 4 alone, but we do when we also read the genealogy toledoth in chapter 5.
Gen. 5:3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.
Abel, therefore, would have logically died sometime just prior to Seth's birth, perhaps just a couple years prior. Seth would have had to be conceived next after Abel's death in order for Eve to proclaim him "another child in place of Abel." Thus, Abel was likely well over a century old (assuming he was born soon after the banishment) by the time Cain killed him. That's a lot of time for him and Cain and Adam to procreate.
IOWs, the implications from the combined texts are that Adam and Eve, Cain and his wife, and Abel and his wife were procreating during that century+ span of time prior to Seth's birth. This answers the question of where Cain got his wife (already had one) and why Cain feared vengeance (lots of Adam's descendants already on the earth).
I'm therefore suggesting that opening a can of worms—prelapsarian children in the Garden—is completely unnecessary. I don't think there's any conceivable reason to go there.
Well, we know it can't possibly be a list of firstborns, since we know for certain that Seth is not the firstborn. And when you look at the ages of these sons, it makes it even more clear. None of them were likely firstborns.
Remember, the purpose of genealogies is to link descendants to a particular ancestor. This particular toledoth genealogy was showing a link between Noah and Adam. It is technically Noah's genealogy, not Adam's. (Adam had no genealogy) It's very unlikely that all of Noah's ancestors linking him to Adam were all firstborn sons.
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George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Ok, let me try this way Calminian. Let me grant that my explanation is unnecessary because you have a simpler one.
Consider that granted, Ok? Now let me posit my scenario, and ask you a question:
Adam and Eve spend 100 years in the garden and therein beget sons and daughters.
- Year 100 they are banished.
- Cain is born in 105.
- Abel is born in 110.
- Abel dies in 130.
- Seth is born in 130.
Given that we've granted, for argument's sake, that this is not the simplest explanation, do you nevertheless see a logical objection in that set-up as far as the 130-year gap you've been talking about?
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BenWest
Member
Here's the chronology. Adam sins and has 2 children and Cain kills Abel and Adam and Eve are born again Spiritually by God the Trinity. Genesis 5:1-2 AFTER they were born eternally for 130 years, they had a son to replace Abel. Genesis 4:25
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
I'm afraid I can't follow what you're saying.
BenWest
Member
Adam was formed from the dust of the ground by Lord God on Day 3, before the plants, herbs and rain. Genesis 2:4-7 The next two verses confirm that it was BEFORE the Trees were made on the 3rd Day. Genesis 1:12
Eve was fashioned from Adam's rib on the 6th Day. Genesis 2:22
BOTH Adam and Eve were "created" eternally by God the Trinity (Elohim) later, on the 6th Day/Age. Genesis 5:1-2 which is AFTER Cain killed Abel. To be created in God's Image is to be born again Spiritually in Christ. Amen?
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
I'm afraid I can't Amen all that but at least I understand you a little better now.
BenWest
Member
It's probably because I show that Adam was made the 3rd Day from the dust of the ground before the plants herbs and rain. Most people think that Adam and Eve were made on the 6th Day but in order for our first parents to be in Heaven, they MUST have been born again Spiritually. Do you think A&E will be in Heaven?