Was it God's will for Adam to Sin ?

[savedbymercy]

saying that the Lord had ordained that mankind would have a Messiah/saviour, who would come to die and purchase by his blood those who God had elected to save out from sinful humanity, that this would be done for His glory, and that what satan and Adam had done, was already planned by god before it would even happen to be redeemed and made greater than even before!

I do NOT hold that God ordained and caused satan/Adam to sin, bu that He caused the fall by use of their decisions, as the falls MUST have happened, but God did not "force: either one to chose sin and evil!

You have not answered my question. You seem to be saying that God's Greater Eternal Purpose in Christ [Eph 3:11], which was Redemptive, was subordinate to a lesser purpose, the creation of adam, and for adam not to have sinned.

If God did not create adam and purpose him to sin in order for His Greater Purpose which was for Christ to Glorify Him through Redemption from sin, then you are saying that God's Lesser sub purpose was really His Greater Purpose and Christ was a backup lesser Purpose because God foresaw adam would sin. Is that pretty accurate of what you believe ?

but God did not "force: either one to chose sin and evil

I do not see anywhere in anything I have posted that God forced anything to happen. You lost me on that one.

 

[DaChaser1]

You have not answered my question. You seem to be saying that God's Greater Eternal Purpose in Christ [Eph 3:11], which was Redemptive, was subordinate to a lesser purpose, the creation of adam, and for adam not to have sinned.

If God did not create adam and purpose him to sin in order for His Greater Purpose which was for Christ to Glorify Him through Redemption from sin, then you are saying that God's Lesser sub purpose was really His Greater Purpose and Christ was a backup lesser Purpose because God foresaw adam would sin. Is that pretty accurate of what you believe ?



I do not see anywhere in anything I have posted that God forced anything to happen. You lost me on that one.

Just curious, are you one holding to hyper calvinism then?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

jesus MUST die upon the Cross, was predestined/ordained by god, BUT those whose wicked herats placed them there were doing what they "wanted to do!"

same way Fall MUST happen, but thosw who fell still made decision to do such!

Being pedestined by God doesn't make man kind falling into sin inevitable or nor does God "set man up to fall". The fall didn't have to happen.

What you seem to fail to see is that no matter what choice man makes God is soveriegn. God isn't relegated to just one decision as is the supposition you are making. Man cannot choose outside God's influence because nothing is outside God's influence. But that doesn't mean God willed man to fall or ordain the fall. Because if he did he would be an evil God. A God who authors sin. A God who tempts man. The scriptures are clear. God cannot sin nor tempt man to sin.

 

[DaChaser1]

Being pedestined by God doesn't make man kind falling into sin inevitable or nor does God "set man up to fall". The fall didn't have to happen.

What you seem to fail to see is that no matter what choice man makes God is soveriegn. God isn't relegated to just one decision as is the supposition you are making. Man cannot choose outside God's influence because nothing is outside God's influence. But that doesn't mean God willed man to fall or ordain the fall. Because if he did he would be an evil God. A God who authors sin. A God who tempts man. The scriptures are clear. God cannot sin nor tempt man to sin.

What I am saying is that God had both ordained that there would be the messiah to redeem out a chosen group from among sinful humanity,that he would reverse and undo to his glory the fall of BOTH satan and Adam, But that he did NOT direct cause them to sin, as he would NOT be God if he had determined to have them sin in order to get a greater glory from that!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What I am saying is that God had both ordained that there would be the messiah to redeem out a chosen group from among sinful humanity,that he would reverse and undo to his glory the fall of BOTH satan and Adam, But that he did NOT direct cause them to sin, as he would NOT be God if he had determined to have them sin in order to get a greater glory from that!

I'm trying to break down your first sentence for my understanding. I think I agree with the second.

 

[DaChaser1]

I'm trying to break down your first sentence for my understanding. I think I agree with the second.

NOTHING happened that was outside the Will of God, its just that he dtermined directly the Cross of the messiah to happen, BEFORE the FALL even happened, but He allowed satan/Adam to make their choices...

 

[DaChaser1]

You have not answered my question. You seem to be saying that God's Greater Eternal Purpose in Christ [Eph 3:11], which was Redemptive, was subordinate to a lesser purpose, the creation of adam, and for adam not to have sinned.

If God did not create adam and purpose him to sin in order for His Greater Purpose which was for Christ to Glorify Him through Redemption from sin, then you are saying that God's Lesser sub purpose was really His Greater Purpose and Christ was a backup lesser Purpose because God foresaw adam would sin. Is that pretty accurate of what you believe ?



I do not see anywhere in anything I have posted that God forced anything to happen. You lost me on that one.

I hold as you that the Lord had determined to bring Glory to himself By the Cross of Christ, to reddem out a people for his own sake/glory/honor, was predestined even before the Fall to occur...

he still allowed satan and Adam though "free will" to make their choices to sin and rebel against God!

Think we are saying about same thing, just using different wording on it!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

NOTHING happened that was outside the Will of God, its just that he dtermined directly the Cross of the messiah to happen, BEFORE the FALL even happened, but He allowed satan/Adam to make their choices...

Let me see if I get this right. God did not will that man would fall. However, God willed that before man was even made that Jesus Christ would be our redeemer? If that is correct then I'm in agreement.

 

[Moriah]

NOTHING happened that was outside the Will of God, its just that he dtermined directly the Cross of the messiah to happen, BEFORE the FALL even happened, but He allowed satan/Adam to make their choices...

DaChaser1,

You do not sound like a Calvinist, not any of the Calvinist points, or even a Lutheran when you say what you do right here. You know that you have admitted that God gave man a choice. That is against Calvinism.

 

[Moriah]

What I am saying is that God had both ordained that there would be the messiah to redeem out a chosen group from among sinful humanity,that he would reverse and undo to his glory the fall of BOTH satan and Adam, But that he did NOT direct cause them to sin, as he would NOT be God if he had determined to have them sin in order to get a greater glory from that!

Calvinists believe that God ordained sin. Are you publicly recanting your Calvinist beliefs?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Calvinists believe that God ordained sin. Are you publicly recanting your Calvinist beliefs?

That isn't what Calvin said

“For the proper and genuine cause of sin is not God’s hidden counsel but the evident will of man,” -Calvin, Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God

 

[Moriah]

Had you said that it is God’s will to give Adam a choice although He knew Adam would sin, but not that it was His will for Adam to sin, then I would have understood your statement (you almost did here, but instead you phrased everything into a question – but I think that this is what you are implying).

So, I take it that you believe that Adam sinned of his own free will and apart from the will of God (please correct me if I’m wrong).

God did not decree the Fall, that it should happen, but God also did not ordain the Fall that it would happen based on Adam's choice. He did not “permit” that sin, but was unable to prevent it because of the freedom He gave to Adam (He did not “ordain” the sin that in occurring it worked in accord with a plan or for the good).

God could prevent a sin, or let a sin happen, just as it is to this day. However, concerning Adam and the fall, God knew Adam would sin. God did not make Adam sin. God created Adam with a free will. If we do not have a free will, then what kind of love do you have?

 

[Moriah]

That isn't what Calvin said

Calvinists believe that God is sovereign in a way that God controls EVERYTHING, thus the very sins we do. John Calvin does NOT personally have to say something to make it his belief, because someone does not realize something about their belief, does not make it not so. I am not an Arminiian, but even Arminius did not accept John Calvin's beliefs BECAUSE HIS BELIEFS MAKES GOD RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD. We are responsible for our own sins.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Calvinists believe that God is sovereign in a way that God controls EVERYTHING, thus the very sins we do. John Calvin does NOT personally have to say something to make it his belief, because someone does not realize something about their belief, does not make it not so. I am not an Arminiian, but even Arminius did not accept John Calvin's beliefs BECAUSE HIS BELIEFS MAKES GOD RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD. We are responsible for our own sins.

Calvin certainly did not believe this and neither to many modern calvinists. However, Hypercalvinist do believe as you've suggested.

 

[DaChaser1]

Calvin certainly did not believe this and neither to many modern calvinists. However, Hypercalvinist do believe as you've suggested.

Think that 4 and 5 pointers see this differently, as would also hyper and moderates like myself!

Moderates would see it the Lord caused/determined that the messiah would come, would die on behalf of his own people, to save them from their sins, and would have all creatrion redeened also...

Hypers would see that, and also say that God ordained/caused the fall to happen, that in order to have his amin plan of the Cross be done!

 

[preacher4truth]

Since Jesus was slain prior to the foundation of this age, would that not have required a people that needed saved from sin?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Since Jesus was slain prior to the foundation of this age, would that not have required a people that needed saved from sin?

note God exist outside of time space therefore if Jesus was slain he was always slain.

 

[preacher4truth]

note God exist outside of time space therefore if Jesus was slain he was always slain.

He also exists within 'time and space.' He knows all things, and is everywhere present at all times. There is no place we can flee from His presence which includes 'time and space.'

He knew all that would take place, and still created.

There is no 'plan B' with God.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

He also exists within 'time and space.' He knows all things, and is everywhere present at all times. There is no place we can flee from His presence which includes 'time and space.'

He knew all that would take place, and still created.

There is no 'plan B' with God.

I agree with that. Doens't changed the fact that if Jesus was slain (no matter when it happened, he was always slain) However, if you go on to say that God willed man to sin or set man up so that it was inevitable that he sin. I disagree with you.

 

[Moriah]

Think that 4 and 5 pointers see this differently, as would also hyper and moderates like myself!

Moderates would see it the Lord caused/determined that the messiah would come, would die on behalf of his own people, to save them from their sins, and would have all creatrion redeened also...

Hypers would see that, and also say that God ordained/caused the fall to happen, that in order to have his amin plan of the Cross be done!

There is no way a Calvinist can deny it. Calvinism and any points of Calvinism, whether or not hyper, their beliefs come down to the fact that God is responsible for ALL not believing in Jesus Christ. I will prove this fact to you---Answer this: Do you believe in total depravity? If you say yes, as I know you will because you fought for those beliefs in other threads...you would have to know that with a totally depraved nature, is from a a sovereign God who controls and ordains everything...even the totally depraved nature of man! That is what Calvinists believe, whether they admit it or not. Just like a Catholic arguing to the end that they are not worshiping statues, but merely venerating the "Holy Images."