convicted1
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oooooooh, oooooooh, ooooooh, I know. Lucifer......
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Was it God's will for Adam to Sin ?
- Thread starter savedbymercy
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oooooooh, oooooooh, ooooooh, I know. Lucifer......
preacher4truth
Active Member
It looks to me folks are slinging around 'author of evil' yet no one is defining it. Repeating a term without denying it is useless rhetoric.
What is 'author of evil'? Seriously I think its an over-used term and not much thought is given to it except to be used in a pejorative sense. In this sense it is used toward those who believe the truth of Scripture, that is, that God knew all things prior to creation, and all evil that would come with it. And, that He permitted the evil, which in all actuality 'permitting' is effectual in its end result, or, permitting is still efficacious.
Now define 'author of evil'. Is it any of the following? Creator of evil? Knew all evil that would come and allowed it anyhow? Makes persons do evil? Uses evil subjects to accomplish evil tasks for Him? Uses man to accomplish evil tasks? Uses men to make certain another is slain?
The fact is God is Sovereign and Holy and He does some of the above things.
I'm certain some could rush off and define it ('author of evil') here in defense mode to prove they 'know what it means' (to them), but the definition won't retro back and fit into the context of how it is being used here in this thread, which is pejoratively against others.
What is 'author of evil'? Seriously I think its an over-used term and not much thought is given to it except to be used in a pejorative sense. In this sense it is used toward those who believe the truth of Scripture, that is, that God knew all things prior to creation, and all evil that would come with it. And, that He permitted the evil, which in all actuality 'permitting' is effectual in its end result, or, permitting is still efficacious.
Now define 'author of evil'. Is it any of the following? Creator of evil? Knew all evil that would come and allowed it anyhow? Makes persons do evil? Uses evil subjects to accomplish evil tasks for Him? Uses man to accomplish evil tasks? Uses men to make certain another is slain?
The fact is God is Sovereign and Holy and He does some of the above things.
I'm certain some could rush off and define it ('author of evil') here in defense mode to prove they 'know what it means' (to them), but the definition won't retro back and fit into the context of how it is being used here in this thread, which is pejoratively against others.
God is the ultimate cause of all things, this includes sin.
It's not that hard to wrap one's brain around that fact. Once people let God be God and stop trying to "protect" Him by saying God could NEVER be the author of sin or evil, this makes whole lot more sense.
I personally believe that those who dispute that are disobediant and ignorant at best, and unbelievers at worst.
There are quite a few nice articles on this subject here: vincentcheung.com
We cannot say Adam was led by God to sin. That is unscriptural. Trying to understand the Bible by sheer deductivie reasoning using the best of man's wisdom will fail every time. God made man with the ability to choose his own course as to whether to obey or not obey God, and man failed, not God.
Who led Adam into sin, God? No Adam was led there by Eve, the Devil, and his own thinking. Today Christians wrestle against the world, the flesh, and the devil, but God is not the motivating cause of these forces and pressures, and it is blasphemous to accuse Him of being the cause underlying evil in the world.
James 1 says, "Do not err, my beloved brethren." How? By misunderstanding what causes sin. God is not the cause like some people like to think, but "every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed". So, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, NEITHER TEMPTETH HE ANY MAN."
It shouldn't be too hard for people to wrap their heads around the fact that God does not lead people to sin and has no desire that they sin, and has no pleasure in it when they do sin. That should be very simple to understand.
Agreed. God has set forth a plan which includes good and evil, thus, God is the Author of good and evil. This does not make God anything less than Perfect, Holy, Good, Loving and Merciful.
A paradox of sorts is set forth in the scripture from the beginning. Which is, God set Adam up to fail, thus, causing Adam's failure, however, Adam had a choice, thus, Adam is his own cause of failure. It is a paradox, yet it both are true.
Like Dustin said, let God be God and stop trying to "protect" His character. His character is PERFECT LOVE, even though His plan includes evil, for without evil, love cannot be truly and fully understood. Man must needs be to learn good and evil that he may express true love in his choices.
God protects His own reputation in His Word. We simply need to get in line and agree with Him. Sin was not the primary product of God's creation, but more of a by-product. God doesn't delight in the suffering and death that sin brought into the world, but sin had to come for God to create that which He did desire for man, which is the freedom to choose or reject God on their own. There is absolutely no other purpose for God to have allowed sin to enter the world.
Don't we sorta dance around a bit when we say words like "allowed" ? It is what it is, God designed a plan and that plan included evil. Doesn't make God evil in my eyes for I know the scriptures which declare God is pure good.
Sin has no meaning unless it refers to those things thought, said and done outside the will of God. God does not cause anyone to do, think, or act outside of His will. When anyone sins, it is not because God had anything to do with the process at all, except for trying to stop it. God does not push people to disobey God so He can judge them for their disobedience. He took upon Himself the just judgment of the sins of the whole earth, so it would be sort of silly to say He encourages someone to sin, leaving God to blame.
When the Bible says, "Cursed be he that maketh the blind to wander out of the way" (among the over dozen of curses God pronounces in Deu. 27), is God putting the curse on Himself for making the blind to wander out of the way? Of course not, God doesn't cause or make men sin, they do that on their own. Don't be silly.
God wants us to choose Him of our own free will, to obey and love Him. Calvinists go against the deep things of God in so many ways.
I really enjoy reading the truth that you have written in this thread.
Thank you so much for that encouragement, Moriah. God bless you.
jonathan.borland
Active Member
Why dont you just say that God is sinful if he causes people to sin? The Bible says that he doesn't even tempt people, but you say he causes/forces people to sin? I guess you have to if you're a Calvinist. Glad I'm not!
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
You confuse God's soveriegnty with his authorship. God is overall and even sin is submitted to him ie
God can make sin work to his purpose. But that does not make God the author of sin setting men up to fall because scriptures also say
Nor with in God is there sin. Therefore he cannot author it as in this verse
God of course would foreknow that Adam would sin but that didn't lessen Adam's freedom to sin or not. You assume that choice is greater than God but all eventualities are under God's domain. In fact you seem to lessen God by saying he authored sin and made it inevitable that man sin because God must then limit all things to his control rather than being over all options and knowing which options will actually occur.
To say God authored sin and tempted man is against scripture, his nature, and in the end an evil consept. Because that would make God by nature Evil and not worthy of any human being's homage because it lessens us to nothing more than his play thing.
I don't know if you are American but the American belief is that Human beings are endowed with inalienable rights and dignities such as freedom which is self evident in nature and connected with God. If you believe this then you cannot hold to God making inevitable for man to sin and authoring sin because then man is not naturally free and we are not endowned with the right of freedom and we are deligated to nothing more than being God's plaything. Thus there is no love of us from God. And that is a lie.
If God is the author of sin then how can we trust him in anything? Accordingly he might just be lieing to us about everyting and is not worthy of our trust not to mention our praise.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Your last statement shows how you are clueless in your understanding of the Sovereignty of God.
If you can't trust God, in that it is factual He allows sin, and that in permitting evil the same outcome is just as efficacious and effectual, then I cannot help you and your own struggle here to accept this will be your own journey.
I see God in Scripture creating the world, permitting all evil, knowing all things at all times that will come to pass, and see Him even using secondary means and agents even to theslaying others, allowing of fortunes to be taken, even of livestock, lives, homes, and sicknesses being inflicted. Some can say as Job in all of this "Even if He slays me, I will trust Him" and as Moses, who saw both the goodness and severe judgment and Sovereignty of God says "I want to know more of You and Your ways" Exodus 33.
Others cannot say this. They are appalled at the Scriptures that show us these truths of God.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
No matter how sovereign a God is if he is evil (in order to author evil) then my statement remains true.
This statement shows how clueless you are about love.
Love demands freedom of will. Being made in the image of God demands freedom of will. Therefore it is not the same thing. It also shows how limiting you view of God's soveriengty is. God being sovereign is over even sin making sin useful for his glory. That doesn't make him the author of it. Lastly it shows your lack of understanding of Evil. Evil is not equal to God it doesn't exist in a vacuum. Evil cannot exist on its own. Evil is a parasite its a perverted or twisted good and most of all it is disobedience to God to choose against him who is life theirfore making it death. And note even death is subject to God. How is your understanding of God any different from a Budhist. In order for God to author evil he must be evil or above all consepts of good and evil which makes evil only a relative thing and then even satan has a redeeming quality. Scriptures are clear. There is no darkness (sin) in God (he cannot therefore author sin) and he does not tempt people to sin (he cannot make it inevitable that man would fall.)
The only reason anyone could say "even if he slay me" is the trust that God is good. If God authored evil God is not good. Judgement becomes irrelevant and sovereignty becomes for us slavery. God can know more about things than us but he can never be evil as you suppose.
Because you call God evil. God is sovereign. God is judgement. God is also Love. Love demands freedom. Love demands sacrifice which Jesus willingly did. Sovereignty and Judgement do not require God's sacrifice. You leave out that aspect of God's characteristics.
savedbymercy
New Member
If the Lord Jesus christ in the Eternal Mind of God, was slain from or before the foundation of the world [ Rev 13:8], before the world was created and existed, then it serves to reason, that it [ the world] was created for His Eternal Purpose of redemption Eph 3:11
11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
which means the entrance of sin and mans redemption from it, was all part of His eternal purpose for the world. Sin entering into the world by adam was not a deviation of Gods Eternal purpose but included within it and necessary to make manifest the wisdom of the eternal purpose..Eph 3:9-10
9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, Preview If the Lord Jesus christ in the Eternal Mind of God, was slain from or before the foundation of the world [ Rev 13:8], before the world was created and existed, then it serves to reason, that it [ the world] was created for His Eternal Purpose of redemption Eph 3:11
11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
which means the entrance of sin and mans redemption from it, was all part of His eternal purpose and plan for the world. Sin entering into the world by adam was not a deviation of Gods Eternal purpose but included within it and necessary to make manifest the wisdom of the eternal purpose..Eph 3:9-10
9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, Preview If the Lord Jesus christ in the Eternal Mind of God, was slain from or before the foundation of the world [ Rev 13:8], before the world was created and existed, then it serves to reason, that it [ the world] was created for His Eternal Purpose of redemption Eph 3:11
11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
which means the entrance of sin and mans redemption from it, was all part of His eternal purpose and plan for the world. Sin entering into the world by adam was not a deviation of Gods Eternal purpose but included within it and necessary to make manifest the wisdom of the eternal purpose..Eph 3:9-10
9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
which means the entrance of sin and mans redemption from it, was all part of His eternal purpose for the world. Sin entering into the world by adam was not a deviation of Gods Eternal purpose but included within it and necessary to make manifest the wisdom of the eternal purpose..Eph 3:9-10
9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, Preview If the Lord Jesus christ in the Eternal Mind of God, was slain from or before the foundation of the world [ Rev 13:8], before the world was created and existed, then it serves to reason, that it [ the world] was created for His Eternal Purpose of redemption Eph 3:11
11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
which means the entrance of sin and mans redemption from it, was all part of His eternal purpose and plan for the world. Sin entering into the world by adam was not a deviation of Gods Eternal purpose but included within it and necessary to make manifest the wisdom of the eternal purpose..Eph 3:9-10
9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, Preview If the Lord Jesus christ in the Eternal Mind of God, was slain from or before the foundation of the world [ Rev 13:8], before the world was created and existed, then it serves to reason, that it [ the world] was created for His Eternal Purpose of redemption Eph 3:11
11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
which means the entrance of sin and mans redemption from it, was all part of His eternal purpose and plan for the world. Sin entering into the world by adam was not a deviation of Gods Eternal purpose but included within it and necessary to make manifest the wisdom of the eternal purpose..Eph 3:9-10
9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Unfortunately, there are a few assumptions made here.
The rest is redundant. The assumption is that God authored sin. This would be God is evil.
The first assumption is that because God foreknew mans choice does not mean God made it so man inevitably fell. Because God is eternal everything he does is eternal. Thus when Jesus Died he did so in eternity thus from the begining he was slain. To suggest God tempted man (setting him up to fall) is against James 1:13.
Yes knowing man would fall he purposed to save the summit of his creation. John 3:16
Purpose and will are two different thing. God did not will for man to fall or sin. God however is sovereign overall potentialities and eventualities. God is over sin and subjects sin. God purposed to save man and made manifiest both his devine love and power and sovereignty by the incarnation.
The assumption here is the last sentence. God eternally purposed for man to be redeemed and creation with it. The world wasn't created for it.
The rest is redundant. The assumption is that God authored sin. This would be God is evil.
God is holy and in him there is no darkness at all. Hence, sin does not originate with God.
God is omnipotent and if He so chose he could have prevented sin from entering his creation but he clearly did not. Hence, at least from a permissive perspective God purposely chose to allow sin.
God created beings with the ability of alternative choice to choose good or evil but with full moral responsibility for their own choice and its consequences. Hence, the creation of free will necessarily includes the option to sin, and thus necessarily gives permission for sin to enter His creation because without such permission there could be no alternative choice and thus no free will.
Hence, God is the INDIRECT author of sin by purposely creating moral Beings capable of free will with full knowledge of such consequences of sin, thus full well knowing they would indeed choose evil.
However, God is not the RESPONSIBLE author of sin because He created beings with free will as responsible moral agents.
God is omnipotent and could have prevented Lucifer and Adam or Eve from sinning but in so doing would have also denied free moral responsible choice.
God works ALL THINGS according to His purpose for the good of His elect and for HIs own glory. Hence, in permitting sin to originate with all of its consequences was consistent with the greatest good and glory for His people and Himself or else we would have a different creation.
God is omnipotent and if He so chose he could have prevented sin from entering his creation but he clearly did not. Hence, at least from a permissive perspective God purposely chose to allow sin.
God created beings with the ability of alternative choice to choose good or evil but with full moral responsibility for their own choice and its consequences. Hence, the creation of free will necessarily includes the option to sin, and thus necessarily gives permission for sin to enter His creation because without such permission there could be no alternative choice and thus no free will.
Hence, God is the INDIRECT author of sin by purposely creating moral Beings capable of free will with full knowledge of such consequences of sin, thus full well knowing they would indeed choose evil.
However, God is not the RESPONSIBLE author of sin because He created beings with free will as responsible moral agents.
God is omnipotent and could have prevented Lucifer and Adam or Eve from sinning but in so doing would have also denied free moral responsible choice.
God works ALL THINGS according to His purpose for the good of His elect and for HIs own glory. Hence, in permitting sin to originate with all of its consequences was consistent with the greatest good and glory for His people and Himself or else we would have a different creation.
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savedbymercy
New Member
think
There is no assumption, this World was made for Jesus Christ's Redemptive from sin purpose. Col 1:13-16
13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
The Power of Darkness that God through Christ delivered the saints from, was created by God for that Purpose.
There is no assumption, this World was made for Jesus Christ's Redemptive from sin purpose. Col 1:13-16
13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
The Power of Darkness that God through Christ delivered the saints from, was created by God for that Purpose.
savedbymercy
New Member
bib
Sin originated in God's Eternal Purpose ! God did not committ sin, but He made Adam for that Purpose to sin and bring sin and death into the world. He created satan to be the instrument that would deceive eve for that purpose !
Sin originated in God's Eternal Purpose ! God did not committ sin, but He made Adam for that Purpose to sin and bring sin and death into the world. He created satan to be the instrument that would deceive eve for that purpose !
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