Was it God's will for Adam to Sin ?

[The Biblicist]

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Sin originated in God's Eternal Purpose ! God did not committ sin, but He made Adam for that Purpose to sin and bring sin and death into the world. He created satan to be the instrument that would deceive eve for that purpose !

He created all things for his glory. Sin is according to God's permission not according to God's good pleasure. The creation of responsible free moral agency necessitates permission for sin in his creation but at the same time contrary to His revealed will. God did not make Lucifer or Adam sin.

 

[savedbymercy]

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He created all things for his glory

Yes to include sin, and its defeat by His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. This World was Created for that specific purpose, the Cross !

Sin is according to God's permission not according to God's good pleasure

.

It is according to God's Good Pleasure. Christ defeating sin was to His Good Pleasure and everything associated with reaching that objective. What god do you serve that does not do everything and cause everything to be done for His Good Pleasure ?

Eph 1:5

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[The Biblicist]

bib

It is according to God's Good Pleasure. Christ defeating sin was to His Good Pleasure and everything associated with reaching that objective. What god do you serve that does not do everything and cause everything to be done for His Good Pleasure ?

Eph 1:5

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

The Scriptures and logic you are using only refer to the salvation from sin and the defeat of sin. God's good pleasure can only be toward righteousness and the defeat of sin. God never looks upon sin with pleasure and God never views the consequences of sin with pleasure. What kind of god do you serve that takes pleasure in sin and its consequences??

Sin and its consequences are permitted by God never the pleasure of God.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The Scriptures and logic you are using only refer to the salvation from sin and the defeat of sin. God's good pleasure can only be toward righteousness and the defeat of sin. God never looks upon sin with pleasure and God never views the consequences of sin with pleasure. What kind of god do you serve that takes pleasure in sin and its consequences??

Sin and its consequences are permitted by God never the pleasure of God.

Hey what do you know. We agree on something else! :thumbs:

 

[The Biblicist]

The Scriptures and logic you are using only refer to the salvation from sin and the defeat of sin. God's good pleasure can only be toward righteousness and the defeat of sin. God never looks upon sin with pleasure and God never views the consequences of sin with pleasure. What kind of god do you serve that takes pleasure in sin and its consequences??

Sin and its consequences are permitted by God never the pleasure of God.

Ps 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.


Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Hab 1:13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

 

[Moriah]

The Scriptures and logic you are using only refer to the salvation from sin and the defeat of sin. God's good pleasure can only be toward righteousness and the defeat of sin. God never looks upon sin with pleasure and God never views the consequences of sin with pleasure. What kind of god do you serve that takes pleasure in sin and its consequences??

Sin and its consequences are permitted by God never the pleasure of God.

If you really believe what you said right here, then you must protest against Calvinism, because Calvinists believe God made many people for the soul purpose of going to Hell.
Calvinists teach that no human can believe in God after learning of Him, and that God must first save us and cause us to be born again, and without that, they claim no man can believe.
Thus, Calvinists make God responsible for the sins of humans in two ways.

The first way Calvinists make God responsible for the sins of humans is by their belief that God is sovereign and has made people without the ability to believe in Him after learning of Him (even though that is exactly how the Bible says we come to have faith…by learning of God).
The second way Calvinists make God responsible for the sins of the world is that that they say God choose NOT to save many people, and that God made these people for going to Hell. Calvinists say that God created people to go to Hell for His pleasure!

The Bible tells us the sin of the world is unbelief in Jesus. People are responsible for their own sins. The world's sin is unbelief in Jesus. Read what Jesus says in John 16:8, 9, this scripture explains to us that the world's sin is unbelief in Jesus. John 16:8, 9 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

The Scriptures and logic you are using only refer to the salvation from sin and the defeat of sin.

You are lying, scripture does not say that, its you who is limiting God's Good Pleasure !

Salvation and the Defeat of Sin was God's Good Pleasure, that's why ordaining sin into the World by Adam was His good pleasure !

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

God never looks upon sin with pleasure and God never views the consequences of sin with pleasure.

I did not say God looked upon sin with pleasure, never said God looked at the consequences of sin with pleasure, But it pleased Him to bruise His Son for Sin Isa 53:10

I am stating that everything that is done is according to God's Good Pleasure, and He purposed it. Sin and All. This World was Created for a Redemptive from Sin Purpose Col 1:13-16

13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

This world was Created for a Soteriological Purpose in Christ Jesus Eph 3:11

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
There could not have been any previous Purpose for this world to be created besides this Eternal One in Christ Jesus, before the world began 1 Pet 1:20

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

And you teach that God's Eternal Purpose was purposed because He foresaw Adam would sin, then you make God to be responding to Adam's choice, and directing things from within Himself
Eph 1:9

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

If thats your position, I am telling you now it is Blasphemy !

 

[The Biblicist]

If you really believe what you said right here, then you must protest against Calvinism, because Calvinists believe God made many people for the soul purpose of going to Hell.
Calvinists teach that no human can believe in God after learning of Him, and that God must first save us and cause us to be born again, and without that, they claim no man can believe.
Thus, Calvinists make God responsible for the sins of humans in two ways.

The first way Calvinists make God responsible for the sins of humans is by their belief that God is sovereign and has made people without the ability to believe in Him after learning of Him (even though that is exactly how the Bible says we come to have faith…by learning of God).
The second way Calvinists make God responsible for the sins of the world is that that they say God choose NOT to save many people, and that God made these people for going to Hell. Calvinists say that God created people to go to Hell for His pleasure!

The Bible tells us the sin of the world is unbelief in Jesus. People are responsible for their own sins. The world's sin is unbelief in Jesus. Read what Jesus says in John 16:8, 9, this scripture explains to us that the world's sin is unbelief in Jesus. John 16:8, 9 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;

There are many different forms of "Calvinism." BTW I never claimed to be a Calvinist and have always consistently denied being a Calvinist on this forum.

I am a "Biblicist."

 

[Moriah]

There are many different forms of "Calvinism." BTW I never claimed to be a Calvinist and have always consistently denied being a Calvinist on this forum.

I am a "Biblicist."

ALL forms of Calvinism make God responsible for the sins of the world. All forms in Calvinism believe in total depravity.

Anyone who believes in total depravity is in falseness. Anyone who believes in total depravity claims to be a Calvinist, a Lutheran, or they say they are from a reformed religion.

 

[The Biblicist]

ALL forms of Calvinism make God responsible for the sins of the world. All forms in Calvinism believe in total depravity.

Anyone who believes in total depravity is in falseness. Anyone who believes in total depravity claims to be a Calvinist, a Lutheran, or they say they are from a reformed religion.

I do not believe God is directly responsible for sin and yet I believe in total depravity. I am not from any "Reformed" church and yet I believe in total depravity.

Total depravity is one of the most misunderstood and distorted doctrines in scripture.

Total depravity does not mean that every human is as bad as they can be or that there are no relatively good humans.

Total depravity only means that ever aspect of the human nature is corrupted by sin and like anything corrupted it can increase in corruption.

Total depravity means the person is at "enmity" with God and is not subject to the Law of God and neither indeed "CAN" be - Rom. 8:7.

 

[Moriah]

I do not believe God is directly responsible for sin and yet I believe in total depravity. I am not from any "Reformed" church and yet I believe in total depravity.

If you believe in total depravity, then you do believe that God is responsible for the sins of the world. If man is incapable of believing and obeying God UNTIL God saves him first, then those whom God does not save, they sin, and it is God's responsibility. Nowhere in the Bible does it say man is totally depraved and cannot believe in God after learning of Him. In fact, the Bible says that is where faith comes from, from hearing the word, from being taught.

Total depravity is one of the most misunderstood and distorted doctrines in scripture.

I understand it completely.

Total depravity means the person is at "enmity" with God and is not subject to the Law of God and neither indeed "CAN" be - Rom. 8:7.

That does NOT mean we cannot learn about Jesus and have faith. We are not reconciled to God unless we come to Him through the blood of Jesus Christ. We do not receive the Holy Spirit to help us stop sinning until AFTER we believe and obey, see John 14:23 and Acts 5:32 "...the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

I do not believe God is directly responsible for sin and yet I believe in total depravity.

Well God's Sovereign First cause is directly respoonsible for sin. He did not sin, but He created those that did for His Purpose, which purpose He purposed sin, for this World was Created for a Redemptive Purpose centered in Christ ! He purposed before the world began, that the crucifixion would be carried out by wicked hands Acts 2:23

23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Rev 13:8

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: I do not believe God is directly responsible for sin and yet I believe in total depravity. I am not from any "Reformed" church and yet I believe in total depravity.

HP: It is interesting to sit here and see one leaning sooo hard towards Calvinism getting their nose rubbed by the very logical conclusions of their own beliefs by a Calvinist no less.

Certainly Savedbymercy is by far the most consistent and unafraid to face the logical ends of his beliefs, while Biblicist tries his best to show himself as Calvinistically orthodox by holding to distinctive Calvinistic beliefs such as total moral depravity from birth, while trying desperately to avoid the unavoidable consequences of such a belief, i.e., God as the Author of all evil and double predestination.

 

[Dr. Walter]

HP: It is interesting to sit here and see one leaning sooo hard towards Calvinism getting their nose rubbed by the very logical conclusions of their own beliefs by a Calvinist no less.

Certainly Savedbymercy is by far the most consistent and unafraid to face the logical ends of his beliefs, while Biblicist tries his best to show himself as Calvinistically orthodox by holding to distinctive Calvinistic beliefs such as total moral depravity from birth, while trying desperately to avoid the unavoidable consequences of such a belief, i.e., God as the Author of all evil and double predestination.

human Logic is not always correct Biblical theology:

Isa. 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Calvinism like Arminianism are systems of human logic. However, the Bible clearly teaches that "NO MAN CAN COME" to Christ except faith is "given unto him of my father (Jn. 6:64-65) and every single one the father draws/gives/teaches will be raised up to the resurrection of eternal life because every single one "cometh unto me" (Jn. 6:44-45).

 

[Moriah]

human Logic is not always correct Biblical theology:

The doctrine of total depravity is nowhere in the scriptures, it is a manufactured belief.

Isa. 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

There are those who CAN know God, and we can boast about it.

Jeremiah 9:24 but let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD.

Ephesians 1:17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.

Colossians 1:9 For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding.

Calvinism like Arminianism are systems of human logic. However, the Bible clearly teaches that "NO MAN CAN COME" to Christ except faith is "given unto him of my father (Jn. 6:64-65) and every single one the father draws/gives/teaches will be raised up to the resurrection of eternal life because every single one "cometh unto me" (Jn. 6:44-45).

No man can come is about when Jesus came to earth and only the lost sheep of Israel could come to him, the rest of the Jews were hardened. In addition, Jesus commanded his disciples not to go to the Gentiles, see Matthew 10:5. All could come to Jesus after Jesus was lifted up.
The reason the Jews who came to Jesus came to Jesus, it is because they recognize what Jesus said as the teaching from God.

John 6:45 Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

 

[Moriah]

HP: It is interesting to sit here and see one leaning sooo hard towards Calvinism getting their nose rubbed by the very logical conclusions of their own beliefs by a Calvinist no less.

Certainly Savedbymercy is by far the most consistent and unafraid to face the logical ends of his beliefs, while Biblicist tries his best to show himself as Calvinistically orthodox by holding to distinctive Calvinistic beliefs such as total moral depravity from birth, while trying desperately to avoid the unavoidable consequences of such a belief, i.e., God as the Author of all evil and double predestination.

You said a lot when you said this! What you say here is right on.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW: human Logic is not always correct Biblical theology:

Isa. 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

HP: Here is one of the most usual and predictable responses by Calvinists or those leaning hard towards Calvinism. When they run into clear contradictions in their theology, or are faced with the logical, reasonable, and inescapable ends of their positions they do not desire to be saddled with, they run to such passages for cover.

The truth is that there are indeed things far beyond our abilities to understand in anyone's theology. We often have to simply erect a question mark as to the only thing we can do as finite individuals. While we have to tolerate uncertainties in our finite thinking and best possible conclusions, we do not have to hold, neither should we allow in our theology, 'absurdities,' which is precisely what Biblicist/Dr. Walters is trying to do. When you have only one possible outcome for a given antecedent, which is the case when one buys into total moral depravity from birth, i.e., God is the Author of all sin and double predestination, to try and hide behind the notion that God's ways are higher than our ways, is to hold an absurdity in ones theology. He/she is showing their total disregard for the simplest of logical conclusions, driven by God given abilities of reason.

 

[Dr. Walter]

HP: Here is one of the most usual and predictable responses by Calvinists or those leaning hard towards Calvinism. When they run into clear contradictions in their theology, or are faced with the logical, reasonable, and inescapable ends of their positions they do not desire to be saddled with, they run to such passages for cover.

The truth is that there are indeed things far beyond our abilities to understand in anyone's theology. We often have to simply erect a question mark as to the only thing we can do as finite individuals. While we have to tolerate uncertainties in our finite thinking and best possible conclusions, we do not have to hold, neither should we allow in our theology, 'absurdities,' which is precisely what Biblicist/Dr. Walters is trying to do. When you have only one possible outcome for a given antecedent, which is the case when one buys into total moral depravity from birth, i.e., God is the Author of all sin and double predestination, to try and hide behind the notion that God's ways are higher than our ways, is to hold an absurdity in ones theology. He/she is showing their total disregard for the simplest of logical conclusions, driven by God given abilities of reason.

[personal attack edited]

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

So here we have it. DW/Biblicist declares all that disagree with him/her as a heretics. Somehow I remember his/her fathers, i.e., Augustine and John Calvin, doing the very same thing with those that disagreed with them. Some things never change. Like spirits, in the end, act the same.