Was it God's will for Adam to Sin ?

[Dr. Walter]

So here we have it. DW/Biblicist declares all that disagree with him/her as a heretics. Somehow I remember his/her fathers, i.e., Augustine and John Calvin, doing the very same thing with those that disagreed with them. Some things never change. Like spirits, in the end, act the same.

No it is a very practical conclusion because it will not matter what kind or amount of evidence is placed before either of you as both of your are incapable of OBJECTIVE evaluation of Biblical evidence. For example, Romans 8:7-9 is a self-evident and clearly stated contrast between the unregenerated man "in the flesh" and the regenerated man "in the Spirit" and you will flatly deny the emphatic negative description of the unregenerated state as it is described in Romans 8:7-8. You will refuse to accept the complete denial of spiritual ability clearly stated "enmity" "not subject" "neither indeed CAN be...THEREFORE...in the flesh CANNOT please God"

Nothing could be stated more clear in a more defined context of the unregenerate and yet you and your compadre deny the obvious and the explicitly stated condition set clearly before you and instead run to labeling (e.g. "Calvinism" "Calvinists" Augustinians) simply because of your own inability to objectively deal with Biblical evidence no matter how clear it may be. Hence, you are both "hopeless" heretics IMO.

In addition, Jesus clearly states "NO MAN CAN" come to him except faith is "given unto him of my Father (Jn 6:64-65) and every single one the Father does draw does come to him (Jn. 6:44) because every single one the Father teaches "cometh to me" (Jn. 6:45).

 

[DaChaser1]

It looks to me folks are slinging around 'author of evil' yet no one is defining it. Repeating a term without denying it is useless rhetoric.

What is 'author of evil'? Seriously I think its an over-used term and not much thought is given to it except to be used in a pejorative sense. In this sense it is used toward those who believe the truth of Scripture, that is, that God knew all things prior to creation, and all evil that would come with it. And, that He permitted the evil, which in all actuality 'permitting' is effectual in its end result, or, permitting is still efficacious.

Now define 'author of evil'. Is it any of the following? Creator of evil? Knew all evil that would come and allowed it anyhow? Makes persons do evil? Uses evil subjects to accomplish evil tasks for Him? Uses man to accomplish evil tasks? Uses men to make certain another is slain?

The fact is God is Sovereign and Holy and He does some of the above things.

I'm certain some could rush off and define it ('author of evil') here in defense mode to prove they 'know what it means' (to them), but the definition won't retro back and fit into the context of how it is being used here in this thread, which is pejoratively against others.

God Ordained that Adam and Lucifier would fall by an Act of sinning against the Lord, but the 'trick" in that is that he also allowedthem to do what they desired to see fit to do!

Were not 'robots" that God forced to do, but God had his sovereinghty and that classic 'free will" tied up in their falls!

 

[DaChaser1]

He created all things for his glory. Sin is according to God's permission not according to God's good pleasure. The creation of responsible free moral agency necessitates permission for sin in his creation but at the same time contrary to His revealed will. God did not make Lucifer or Adam sin.

muhj as God ordained that jesus would die to atone for Sin, He had determined that event, but also used 'free will" of wicked people to bring it to pass!

 

[DaChaser1]

bib



Yes to include sin, and its defeat by His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. This World was Created for that specific purpose, the Cross !

.

It is according to God's Good Pleasure. Christ defeating sin was to His Good Pleasure and everything associated with reaching that objective. What god do you serve that does not do everything and cause everything to be done for His Good Pleasure ?

Eph 1:5

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

God cannot sin, nor does He tempt any to sin!

 

[Dr. Walter]

muhj as God ordained that jesus would die to atone for Sin, He had determined that event, but also used 'free will" of wicked people to bring it to pass!

Exactly!

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

 

[savedbymercy]

God cannot sin, nor does He tempt any to sin!

Who said anything about God sinning or tempting anyone to sin ?

 

[savedbymercy]

muhj as God ordained that jesus would die to atone for Sin, He had determined that event, but also used 'free will" of wicked people to bring it to pass!

Actually their wills were not free. They were responsible, but not free. They were under the #1 Their wills were governed by God's Sovereign determination Acts 4:27

27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

" They were gathered together: this word together is the greek word Sunago and means :

to gather together, to gather

a) to draw together, collect

1) of fishes

2) of a net in which they are caught

2) to bring together, assemble, collect

a) to join together, join in one (those previously separated)

b) to gather together by convoking

c) to be gathered i.e. come together, gather, meet

The word also in the greek is in the passive voice, meaning they were gathered by something or someone outside of themselves, they received the action.

It was God's predetermination of each of them that gathered them together.

Also their wills were not free from the control of sin Rom 6:16

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

God determined the event and everyone who would be involved in bringing the event to pass !

 

[DaChaser1]

If you really believe what you said right here, then you must protest against Calvinism, because Calvinists believe God made many people for the soul purpose of going to Hell.

NO!

we hold that ALL are born as sinners, estranged from God, seperated, and that is why they are lost, not because God "forced them to go to hell!"

Calvinists teach that no human can believe in God after learning of Him, and that God must first save us and cause us to be born again, and without that, they claim no man can believe.

we do NOT claim that first part, and we believe that man is depravied, and our fallen natures cannot come to finding Chrsit to be saved unless God causes us to do that!

Thus, Calvinists make God responsible for the sins of humans in two ways.

The first way Calvinists make God responsible for the sins of humans is by their belief that God is sovereign and has made people without the ability to believe in Him after learning of Him (even though that is exactly how the Bible says we come to have faith…by learning of God).

God did NOT cause people to be born spirtua;;y dead. that was fault of adam!

ALL are sinners, and have also sinned, so God redeems out a people unto Himself...

The second way Calvinists make God responsible for the sins of the world is that that they say God choose NOT to save many people, and that God made these people for going to Hell. Calvinists say that God created people to go to Hell for His pleasure!

ONLY those who hold to double predestination hold to that!

others such as myself hold that due to sin of ada, we are born in a spritually dead state, and JUST as he has always done... The Lord selects and redeems out his 'faithful remnant" and by passes others, allowing them to fulfill their hearts desire... NNE goes to hell against his Will!

The Bible tells us the sin of the world is unbelief in Jesus. People are responsible for their own sins. The world's sin is unbelief in Jesus. Read what Jesus says in John 16:8, 9, this scripture explains to us that the world's sin is unbelief in Jesus. John 16:8, 9 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;

We are already judged/comdemned though before EVEN hearing of jesus, as we are sinners born estranged from God!

So think that the calvinism that you rail against is NOT the version held by vast majority, as you appear to be set against a hard determinism one, that has God ordaing that Evil would occur, who caused the Fall, and who created people for both heaven/hell!

 

[Dr. Walter]

So think that the calvinism that you rail against is NOT the version held by vast majority, as you appear to be set against a hard determinism one, that has God ordaing that Evil would occur, who caused the Fall, and who created people for both heaven/hell!

I certainly do not hold to any of those tenets.

 

[Moriah]

we hold that ALL are born as sinners, estranged from God, seperated, and that is why they are lost, not because God "forced them to go to hell!"

Calvinists, Lutherans, and any religion that calls itself reformed believe that all humans are totally depraved, and cannot choose to come to God. If none can choose God, then all are forced to go to Hell. If all are totally depraved and cannot hear and believe, then God does force those going to Hell to go to Hell.

Calvinists teach that no human can believe in God after learning of Him, and that God must first save us and cause us to be born again, and without that, they claim no man can believe.

we do NOT claim that first part, and we believe that man is depravied, and our fallen natures cannot come to finding Chrsit to be saved unless God causes us to do that!

You have just stated your belief, and it is exactly what I said. You do believe that humans cannot believe in God after learning of Him. People who believe in total depravity believe that God saves them first so that they can believe. That is against what the Word of God says.

God did NOT cause people to be born spirtua;;y dead. that was fault of adam!

If you believe that God is sovereign, and that humans are totally depraved, then with your beliefs, it is God’s fault that people are born spiritually dead. However, God is sovereign, and God gave us a choice, but we choose to sin. There are those who gladly do right and remember His ways, but we cannot stop sinning, that is why we need a Savior. See Isaiah 64:5. You and anyone who believes in total depravity goes against what the scriptures say.

ALL are sinners, and have also sinned, so God redeems out a people unto Himself...

You say all are sinners and God redeems out a people unto Himself…But you also believe that God, for no know reason, choose not to save many people, but instead created them to go to Hell, for His pleasure.

others such as myself hold that due to sin of ada, we are born in a spritually dead state, and JUST as he has always done... The Lord selects and redeems out his 'faithful remnant" and by passes others, allowing them to fulfill their hearts desire... NNE goes to hell against his Will!

How do you think there are a “faithful remnant” if all people are totally depraved?

 

[Dustin]

Who led Adam into sin, God? No Adam was led there by Eve, the Devil, and his own thinking. Today Christians wrestle against the world, the flesh, and the devil, but God is not the motivating cause of these forces and pressures, and it is blasphemous to accuse Him of being the cause underlying evil in the world.

It's just as blaphemous to assume that God is not. When God created Adam, it was "good" because that was exactly how God wanted him to be.

Can the creation undo what the Creator has done? Can the creation do anything but what the Creator has designed him to do? Satan is a creation of God and serves his purpose. The elect were created to give the Lord Jesus an elect congregation, a redeemed (by His work) people that loved him and would praise him becaue He is worthy.

It doesn't matter what happens, God is always glorified, because He is God.

:godisgood:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

If God is glorified by sin, it would be a sin not to sin.

All I can say is some have strayed far from the truth.

 

[The Biblicist]

If God is glorified by sin, it would be a sin not to sin.

All I can say is some have strayed far from the truth.

It is not that sin glorifies God, but whatever sin God permits He will ultimately overrule it for His glory (Psa. 76:10).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Satan is a creation of God and serves his purpose.

HP: Then sin is nothing more than the creation of a Holy God? You could not define a Holy God in a more wicked light than than that.

 

[DaChaser1]

HP: Then sin is nothing more than the creation of a Holy God? You could not define a Holy God in a more wicked light than than that.

God created lucifier, he chose to become satan, and the Lord uses that being to have His ultimate plans at times be fulfilled!

 

[DaChaser1]

It is not that sin glorifies God, but whatever sin God permits He will ultimately overrule it for His glory (Psa. 76:10).

What you sought to do against me for evil, God turned it around for the good....

Joseph seemed to have a perspective agrreing with you here!

 

[mandym]

Was it Gods will and intention for Adam to bring sin into the world : For Rom 5:12 reads:

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Yes indeed it was God's will for Adam to sin. For the purpose of creation of the world was all for Christ..

Col 1:16

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Eph 3:9-11

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

For Adam was made for a redemptive purpose; so how could adam fulfill Gods purpose without plunging all of His descendants into sin ?

I have yet been able to find a scripture that says all things were created for adam, but we do find a Scripture that states emphatically, that all things were created for Christ or unto Christ.

Now Christ eternal purpose was redemptive and involved the calling of the gentiles Eph 3:11, but lets pay close to the two words eternal purpose in vs 11

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Eternal purpose is literally, the Eternal plan or compact that God made in eternity past, within the purpose of the everlasting covenant.

Now many say at this juncture that they believe in the eternal purpose of Christ, but I am afraid it is merely lip service to the truth of Gods eternal purpose in Christ, because the very same ones will turn right around and deny that God wanted adam to sin. They say that God would have preferred not that adam sinned, but because he did sin, God foresaw it, so then God purposed Christ as a sort of back up plan ! But what kinda nonsense is that ? Thats actually contradicting and overturning the clear scripture teaching that that the Eternal Purpose was centered in Jesus Christ or its saying that Jesus Christ was secondary to Gods purpose of adam, which thinking is actually giving the purpose of adam the preeminence over the purpose of Christ, which undermines this:
Col 1:18

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Now certainly, if Jesus Christ was a back up plan for the failure of adam, then adam had the preeminence over Christ in Gods First Purpose..

This thinking is a total repudiation of the truth that all things [ Including adam] were created by and for Jesus Christ..

Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
Jas 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
Jas 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

 

[savedbymercy]

Adam must sin to fulfill God's Eternal Purpose !

The world finds its purpose for being created within the eternal purpose of Jesus Christ Eph 3:9-11,6

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Of which purpose was Redemptive

6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

For it [ The Eternal Purpose] was regarding the gentiles being partakers of the Gospel promises, which promises were grounded in the blood of the everlasting covenant..

Therefore it is nothing but spiritual blindness that people cannot understand that sin was part of Gods eternal purpose in creating the world, Adam must sin in order for the Eternal purpose of the gentiles being partakers of the gospel promises to be realized..

 

[Moriah]

HP: Then sin is nothing more than the creation of a Holy God? You could not define a Holy God in a more wicked light than that.

What you say here is why we must keep speaking the truth and continue to expose the false doctrines of Calvinism.
Whenever I debate Calvinists, Lutherans, and anyone from the reformed denominations, I have had people say that we should not argue, since Calvinists and non-Calvinists believe the same when it comes to the basics. No way is it a small matter.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Moriah: I have had people say that we should not argue, since Calvinists and non-Calvinists believe the same when it comes to the basics. No way is it a small matter.

HP: It is not a small matter. Truth and error have consequences, some eternal, and influence intents and subsequent actions. It is sad, but the basics of Calvinism and non-cals is no small separation. There is a vast void fixed between the two systems of thought and never the twain shall they be the same. One is a system of fatalism and determination, the other one of freedom and choice.