Was it God's will for Adam to Sin ?

[DHK]

You just described how YOUR definition sounds. You sure are confused. Being faithful to your wife is not a work of the law.

Being faithful is a good work.
Not committing adultery is the work of keeping the Law.
Both are works, just stated a different way.
Neither one will merit you eternal life, and neither one will maintain your salvation. Salvation is only through Christ, and it is kept by Christ alone.

 

[Moriah]

Read your Bible. Keeping the Ten Commandments is the most basic of a works based religion. It is the basis of many religions that have based their religions on works.

The Ten Commandments also includes a work of the law.

Romans 3:4 "Let God be true, but every man a liar."

You keep trying to use that scripture against me. Even if you knew what that scripture means, you still could not use it against me.

Read your own post. You made very personal remarks about me that you need to apologize for. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. If another moderator of this forum were reading such, he no doubt would have given you an infraction for what you wrote. Don't make things personal.

I guess you can always use that old tactic of yours, to make up things about me, and to do the very things you say I do.

It takes work for a couple to have a successful marriage. My parents were married for 61 years. How many couples do you know have stayed together that long? I know many that have stayed together for ten years and less, and then have divorced. But for 61 years? They weren't saved, but they worked at keeping their marriage together.

I am talking about people who ARE saved. I am not speaking about your parents are anyone not saved. The unsaved do not understand what I say, they cannot.

It is evil to want to cheat on one's spouse; evil and sin. If you do you break the ten commandments.

It is not a work of the law not to cheat on your wife. God did not nail faithfulness to the cross.

James 2:10-11 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

What do you think you are proving by quoting James?

Moriah, do you have a religion of works?

HaHaHa You are the one with a religion of works, a religion of works that you do not have to do! You call being faithful a work. You call being honest a work. You call everything works. You are the one with a religion of works.

Does it take works for you to be saved? Does it take works for you to maintain your salvation?

It is not a work not sinning. It is freedom to not sin.

 

[plain_n_simple]

Not committing adultery is the work of keeping the Law

Not commiting adultery is being led by the Spirit so as not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Those of us not under the Law (the righteous) ignore the Law, yet obey it without trying or even noticing it. A work of keeping the Law will shut up faith. The good works spoken of are miracles and healings, just like Jesus did, though not us, but Him doing them through us, if we believe.

 

[The Biblicist]

HP: Absolutely God knows. I do not deny His Omniscience in the least.

In your paradigm, God's foreknowledge is limited to foreknowing things of necessity. In mine I see God as able to foreknow matters of perfect choice.

Certainly election is taught in Scripture, but not according to the Calvinistic paradigm. Foreknowledge drives the end in the Calvinistic view, while perfect choice by those salvation is offered to in reality determines who is and who will not be saved, and who was and was not elected by God to salvation.

I hold that God can and does foreknow those that will voluntarily, by being a first cause of their choices, choose to obey the stated conditions of salvation God sets forth, without which no one can be saved. All systems of determinism such as Calvinism would say that God determined who is and who is not of the elect apart from and antecedent to any choices made by man. In reality what they call 'choice' or 'freedom to choose' is a mere sophism, for if their paradigm is correct, all choice made by man were in fact predetermined and 'caused' to come to fruition by God Himself. Their so-called freedom to choose and choice are not freedom or choice period on the part of man, but rather are simply necessitated results of God's causation.

You present your pardigm very clear and understandable. In your other posts you then proceed to eliminate all the problematic scriptures for your pardigm.

The focus of your pardigm is "freedom" and "love" whereby you define sin merely as something that every human must freely invite into their lives.

However, once sin enters the life of a person the Bible says it REIGNS over that person robbing them of their freedom so that they are in BONDAGE to sin. You admit that sinners do not have freedom to univite sin as they did to invite it or else they would not need Christ to deliver them from that bondage but they could simply choose to unvite sin. On the other hand, when God delivers them and makes them FREE from sin's reign you believe man can uninvite God out of their life because his will is free.

So you don't hold to a consistent free will. It is free in and of itself to invite sin in and kick God out but it has no freedom in and of itself to kick sin out but must seek an exterior will power to be delivered from the reign/power/bondage of sin.

Hence, even in your paradigm there is a BONDAGE of the will so that something REIGNS over it in so much that it cannot free itself but must seek out some other source of will power outside itself to be delivered from bondage.

Furthermore, even in your paradigm there is ultimate determinism as that is exactly what the final day of judgement does in regard to eternal destinies and God alone has abritrarily determined the standards and fixed the consequences so that no FREE CHOICE by saved, lost or demons will ever be able to change anything from that point onward.

Moreover, I don't understand how you can interpret prophecy any differently than pure determinism by God when there are notable instances where Satan and men intentionally attempted to prevent it from occuring but were overruled by God.

You have a God that does not work all things "according to His purpose" but rather one who works all things according to the free dictates of creatures but all of a sudden after a few thousand years forcibly changes to absolute determinism as no will of any creature can change their own state or anything else for eternity.

Hence, you have an inconsistent fickled God who operates a few thousand years one way but eternity another way.

 

[The Biblicist]

Not committing adultery is the work of keeping the Law

Not commiting adultery is being led by the Spirit so as not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Those of us not under the Law (the righteous) ignore the Law, yet obey it without trying or even noticing it. A work of keeping the Law will shut up faith. The good works spoken of are miracles and healings, just like Jesus did, though not us, but Him doing them through us, if we believe.

Judgement day uses the standard of the law (Rom. 2:11-13) and judges every man "according to HIS WORKS" whether they be "good" or "evil" and thus "good works" verus "bad works" (Rom. 2:6).

If how we live cannot be defined as either "good WORKS" or "evil WORKS" then what does God judge on judgement day? Fulfilling the lusts of the flesh is called the "works of the flesh"! Being led by the Spirit is doing "good works" or what then does Ephesians 2:10 mean "created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS....?

 

[DHK]

The Ten Commandments also includes a work of the law.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
--It doesn't say "works of the law." It says "not of works," and that is all. God does not differentiate as you do. Works do not merit salvation nor do they maintain one's salvation.

You keep trying to use that scripture against me. Even if you knew what that scripture means, you still could not use it against me.

Romans 3:4 is a statement about one of the attributes of God--that He alone is true. All others are liars including you.

I guess you can always use that old tactic of yours, to make up things about me, and to do the very things you say I do.

It is not my tactic. To accuse people on the board of immorality is shameful.

I am talking about people who ARE saved. I am not speaking about your parents are anyone not saved. The unsaved do not understand what I say, they cannot.

Do your research. There are as many as one in three Christian marriages that end up in divorce. Yes, I was referring to saved people, who need to work at keeping their marriages together. You don't get that do you? Or at the very least you are very naive.

It is not a work of the law not to cheat on your wife. God did not nail faithfulness to the cross.

Keeping the Ten Commandments is the Law. They are works.
Keeping faithful is a work--a good work.
It makes no difference. Both are works.
Salvation is not of works. Eph.2:8,9

What do you think you are proving by quoting James?

James 2:10 states that if you keep all the law and yet offend in one point you are just as guilty as if you broke all the Ten Commandments. Since we have seen you lie on this board, you are also a murderer and an adulterer as well. That is what the verse teaches.

HaHaHa You are the one with a religion of works, a religion of works that you do not have to do! You call being faithful a work. You call being honest a work. You call everything works. You are the one with a religion of works.

Yes they are all works. I believe in doing works. I do them because I am saved, not in order to be saved nor do I do works to maintain my salvation. But you say that works are necessary to maintain your salvation, therefore you have a works-based salvation.

It is not a work not sinning. It is freedom to not sin.

Keeping the Ten Commandments (not sinning) is works. That "freedom" is bondage to the law.

 

[Moriah]

Readers, will God on judgement day define "works" the way Moriah does? He says that keeping from violating the law is not "works" and violating the law is not "works"!

We still have to be faithful to our spouse. You are the one who said we do not have to do that!

Since neither are works by his definition and since God's only rule of judgement is "according to THY WORKS" then God cannot judge anyone for committing adulter, lying, killing, cursing on judgement day because according to Moriah none of these things are "works" and neither is it "good works" by obeying the law by not doing them!

I said it was not a work of the law to be faithful to your wife. I said God did not nail being faithful to the cross. You admit here that we can and will be judged if we commit adultery! So why did you say we do not have to be faithful to our spouses to be saved?

 

[Moriah]

Judgement day uses the standard of the law (Rom. 2:11-13) and judges every man "according to HIS WORKS" whether they be "good" or "evil" and thus "good works" verus "bad works" (Rom. 2:6).

If how we live cannot be defined as either "good WORKS" or "evil WORKS" then what does God judge on judgement day? Fulfilling the lusts of the flesh is called the "works of the flesh"! Being led by the Spirit is doing "good works" or what then does Ephesians 2:10 mean "created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS....?

You do not recognize that you are arguing against your own beliefs.

 

[The Biblicist]

We still have to be faithful to our spouse. You are the one who said we do not have to do that!

I said it was not a work of the law to be faithful to your wife. I said God did not nail being faithful to the cross. You admit here that we can and will be judged if we commit adultery! So why did you say we do not have to be faithful to our spouses to be saved?

Notice that Moriah has the same problem, he is just trying to divert the readers to his view of justification in order to change the subject.

By his definition God has NOTHING to judge man on judgement day since God judges every man "ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS" (Rom. 2:6).

If Moriah's defintion of the law and of "works" is correct then God cannot judge anyone of adultery or lying or anything else on judgement day becuase on judgement day God judges strictly "according to his works"!

Let God be true and every man a liar! Obviously, Moriah's definitions must be false or else God is the liar!

 

[plain_n_simple]

LOL Moriah, good point.

 

[Moriah]

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
--It doesn't say "works of the law." It says "not of works," and that is all. God does not differentiate as you do. Works do not merit salvation nor do they maintain one's salvation.

Abraham’s faith and actions were working together. Faith not accompanied by action is dead. That is the word of God.
Works of the law is what God nailed to the cross.
Colossians 2:14 were having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[d]
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

 

[Moriah]

LOL Moriah, good point.

Oh yeah! Thank you, brother.

 

[The Biblicist]

You do not recognize that you are arguing against your own beliefs.

I understand exactly what I am saying but you do not understand what I am saying. I believe that the lost will be judged according to his works and fail by his works to meaure up to the standard of God's law for eternal life and heaven.

I believe that Christians will be judged according to their works but not for eternal life or heaven but for rewards and positions in heaven. Hence, I believe all both lost and saved will be judged according to their works but for different reasons. The saved have already been judged on the cross "in Christ" in regard to their sins but they have yet to be judged for rewards.

However, you are simply attempting to divert this conversation any way you can from the fact that your definition of the law and "works" deny that God can judge anyone of anything on judgement day as he judges all men saved and lost "according to" their WORKS! You definition denies that keeping or violating the Law of God is a "work" hence, God cannot judge lying, cheating, stealing, killing or adultery on judgement day according to your definitions!

 

[The Biblicist]

LOL Moriah, good point.

Calling God a liar is a good point?????? That is exactly what you both are doing!!

If you deny that lying, stealing, killing, adultery are "evil works" and you deny that NOT killing, stealing, lying, covetousness are "good works" then how is God going to judge anyone of anything on judgment day since the Bible repeatedly says over and over again that he will judge men ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS whether those works be "good" or "evil"??????????

If you deny that obedience to the Spirit of God is not "good WORKS" and fulfilling the lusts of the flesh is not "evil works" than what is God going to judge Christians according to on judgment day if it is not "according to" their WORKS, whether they be "good" or "evil"?

If your defintion of "works" is true then God at minimum cannot judge anyone of anything on judgment day "according to his WORKS" as that is the ONLY standard God uses on judgement day!

 

[Moriah]

Notice that Moriah has the same problem, he is just trying to divert the readers to his view of justification in order to change the subject. By his definition God has NOTHING to judge man on judgement day since God judges every man "ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS" (Rom. 2:6).

You are the one who says we do not have salvation by works. I said we do not have salvation by works of the law, i.e. circumcision. We are no longer saved by the works of the law such as circumcision, and observing of special days and season. The works of the law such as sin offerings, and gift offerings no longer save us. We no longer have to keep the works of the law. We still have to do what God says to do. We still are not to do evil. We still are to do good.

By his definition God has NOTHING to judge man on judgement day since God judges every man "ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS" (Rom. 2:6).

You are the one who said those things do not save us, but here you say we WILL be judged by those things. Again, you are arguing against your own beliefs.

 

[plain_n_simple]

Biblicist you are contradicting yourself so you can be right. Please don't do that you are better than that.

 

[Moriah]

Calling God a liar is a good point?????? That is exactly what you both are doing!!

If you deny that lying, stealing, killing, adultery are "evil works" and you deny that NOT killing, stealing, lying, covetousness are "good works" then how is God going to judge anyone of anything on judgment day since the Bible repeatedly says over and over again that he will judge men ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS whether those works be "good" or "evil"??????????

If you deny that obedience to the Spirit of God is not "good WORKS" and fulfilling the lusts of the flesh is not "evil works" than what is God going to judge Christians according to on judgment day if it is not "according to" their WORKS, whether they be "good" or "evil"?

If your defintion of "works" is true then God at minimum cannot judge anyone of anything on judgment day "according to his WORKS" as that is the ONLY standard God uses on judgement day!

LOL In previous posts, you said those things did not save us.

 

[The Biblicist]

You are the one who says we do not have salvation by works. I said we do not have salvation by works of the law, i.e. circumcision. We are no longer saved by the works of the law such as circumcision, and observing of special days and season. The works of the law such as sin offerings, and gift offerings no longer save us. We no longer have to keep the works of the law. We still have to do what God says to do. We still are not to do evil. We still are to do good.

You are the one who said those things do not save us, but here you say we WILL be judged by those things. Again, you are arguing against your own beliefs.

I never made the rediculous statement that violating the law is not evil "works" and keeping the law is not good "works" - YOU DID!

Your rediculous statement denies that God can judge men of killing, stealing, lying, adultery, cursing, etc. because you deny these can be classified as evil "WORKS" and the Bible clearly states that is the only thing God will judge "according to HIS WORKS." If these are not "works' then there is no judgement day, there is no God because you have proven him to be a liar OR you are wrong!!!!!

Let God be true and every man a liar!

 

[The Biblicist]

LOL In previous posts, you said those things did not save us.

You simply do not get it do you? You are calling God a liar by your definitions regardless of what I said! If your definition of "work" is true then there is no future judgment day and there is no God because his standard of judgement on that day is "according to his WORKS" and if violating the law is not "works" then God cannot judge anyone for lying, stealing, cursing, coveting, killing, adultery, etc.!

 

[Moriah]

Abraham’s faith and actions were working together. Faith not accompanied by action is dead. That is the word of God.
Works of the law is what God nailed to the cross. We still have to be honest, faithful, forgiving… God did not nail those things to the cross. The works of the law are things to where people could at one time judge others to be outside the law. They could at one time judge us by what we ate or drank, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration, or a Sabbath day. Those things are the works that no longer save us.
Colossians 2:14 were having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[d]
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.