Was Jesus A Man Before the Incarnation?

[webdog]

buddy....you are way off on this.

The C/A is a debate I can live with. You are going way off the teaching of the Bible.

Jesus MUST be fully man just as much as he must be fully God. Jesus Body is NOT omnitemporal!!!

His body was not the same yesterday today and forever. His spirit is the same.

This MUST be seen. Or salvation is not there for us. Can you not see this?

****************

OK...never mind. I just read your post. Man...i was freaking out on this one...i thought you had gone off the deep end. I should have knewn better.

peace....James

See...I knew you never read my posts before you reply

 

[Brother Bob]

I agree the corruptible flesh had a start. The Son of God had no start. I believe the body He ascended into Heaven with (perfect, uncorruptible) was the same body He had prior to becoming flesh

He certainly didn't have the carnal body when He left here going back to Heaven and He also will forever exist as Jesus Christ, God and Holy Spirit.

I think we got into this discussion once before about Jesus and can't remember exactly what the argument was about.

 

[LeBuick]

Originally Posted by LeBuick
Even here, I don't consider Jesus omni-present. Read what Jeus says, "John 11:15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

If he were omni present he would have been there.

I think what I was trying to say, when Lasarus was dying they had to send for Jesus. He stayed two days where he was then went to bring Lazarus from the dead. He was not everywhere at the sametime.

 

[Brother Bob]

I think what I was trying to say, when Lasarus was dying they had to send for Jesus. He stayed two days where he was then went to bring Lazarus from the dead. He was not everywhere at the sametime.

Yea, but the LORD was.

He had to call upon God to Glorify Him again as He was before to raise Lazarus.

 

[webdog]

I think what I was trying to say, when Lasarus was dying they had to send for Jesus. He stayed two days where he was then went to bring Lazarus from the dead. He was not everywhere at the sametime.

I believe He could have displayed any of His "omni's" whenever He wanted to. On this occasion He was certainly omniscient. I also recall the times He "hid Himself" from the crowds that were trying to kill Him. Have you ever thought about what that means?

 

[Marcia]

Exo 33:18 Moses said, "Please show me your glory."
Exo 33:19 And he said, "I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name 'The LORD.' And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
Exo 33:20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live."
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock,
Exo 33:22 and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by.
Exo 33:23 Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen."

I didn't realize Spirits had body parts...

God does not have a body! This is what Mormonism teaches - that God the Father has a body.

The Son of God before he incarnated did not have a material body, either. That is what incarnate means. If he had had a material body before then, then that means he was a created being because material bodies have a beginning. They are created.

 

[webdog]

God does not have a body! This is what Mormonism teaches - that God the Father has a body.

The Son of God before he incarnated did not have a material body, either. That is what incarnate means. If he had had a material body before then, then that means he was a created being because material bodies have a beginning. They are created.

Your argument is against the Word of God...not me. Maybe the mormons have one thing right, after all, even a blind squirrel finds a nut from time to time. Please tell me what formless spirit has a face, feet, back and hands. Did God not walk with Adam in the Garden? The Bible doesn't tell us He floated with Adam. How can we be made in the "image" of God...without an image to follow off of? Please don't use the excuse that "image" pertains to everything not physical, either, as the burden of proof would be on you to prove such, which cannot be done.

 

[Brother Bob]

It has not yet appeared what we shall be like but we know we shall be like Him. We try to explain some things that haven't been given to us sometime don't you think.

"14": His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

"15": And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

Depends what a body includes. He don't have a body like our natural body that is for sure but seems as if He does have "hinder quarters", head, hair, feet, able to walk so must have legs, eyes, mouth and a voice. His arms are outstretched "saying come unto me". Again, we are trying to tell something we don't know but then we shall see Him face to face.

Saying it was Christ in the garden don't change anything for He said if you have seen me you have seen the Father.

There is a Celestrial body and we haven't seen one of them yet.

 

[DeeJay]

Your argument is against the Word of God...not me. Maybe the mormons have one thing right, after all, even a blind squirrel finds a nut from time to time. Please tell me what formless spirit has a face, feet, back and hands. Did God not walk with Adam in the Garden? The Bible doesn't tell us He floated with Adam. How can we be made in the "image" of God...without an image to follow off of? Please don't use the excuse that "image" pertains to everything not physical, either, as the burden of proof would be on you to prove such, which cannot be done.

I think it is possable that it was Christ that was walking in the garden. I also think the Bible uses alot of symbolisem to speak of the Father who can not be described in words. Face, Hand. I dont think the Father has a body or a form He is Spirit.

The Mormons believe that the Father has a body "Just like ours" made of flesh and blood. Remember they think that God is a title and not a personage. They think he is one of us was a human who is further advanced and we can advance to be like him. They look at the word god like a job title. Dr., Officer, Sgt. they see god as a job that is given and several people can acheave.

I dont think any of us want to agree with that.

 

[Marcia]

Your argument is against the Word of God...not me.

I'm sorry, Webdog, but your belief that God has a body is against the word of God. Jesus says in John 4 that "God is spirit." God does not have body!

Maybe the mormons have one thing right, after all, even a blind squirrel finds a nut from time to time. Please tell me what formless spirit has a face, feet, back and hands. Did God not walk with Adam in the Garden? The Bible doesn't tell us He floated with Adam. How can we be made in the "image" of God...without an image to follow off of? Please don't use the excuse that "image" pertains to everything not physical, either, as the burden of proof would be on you to prove such, which cannot be done

Well, I've seen a lot of surprising beliefs among Baptist on the BB but I think this one beats them all.

See DeeJay's post on the Mormon view of God having a body. They believe that God was once a man who became God, that is why he has a body.

If being made in God's image meant God has a body like ours, then Jesus would be wrong to say God is spirit.

I already answered you on the question about statements about God's back, hands, etc. There is also a passage referring to God's wings. So do you think he has wings?

How God walked in the Garden with Adam I can't explain but I think He was able to do this without a body, just as he led Moses out of Egypt with the pillar of fire and the cloud. He was able to manifest his presence is some way, but that does not mean he has a body.

Besides the Mormons, the heretical Word Faith people also teach that God has a body. The view that God has a body is against the Bible.

 

[webdog]

I believe the Bible gives us plenty of clues that Christ had a body prior to being incarnated as a human being. We know that after He rose from the dead He ate, walked, talked, and was touched by Thomas. Do we gather from any place in Scripture that Christ looked something other than how He looked while human? No. We will have bodies one day that are like Christ's. They will be very real bodies...not spirit bodies floating around on clouds. Heaven is a very real place...New Jerusalem is a very real city, and the New Earth will be a very real planet. We can't assume that heavenly bodies (that of angels and Christ) are not real bodies, as there is plenty within Scripture that states otherwise.

 

[Brother Bob]

It has not yet appeared what we shall be like but we know we shall be like Him. We try to explain some things that haven't been given to us sometime don't you think.

"14": His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

"15": And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

Depends what a body includes. He don't have a body like our natural body that is for sure but seems as if He does have "hinder quarters", head, hair, feet, able to walk so must have legs, eyes, mouth and a voice. His arms are outstretched "saying come unto me". Again, we are trying to tell something we don't know but then we shall see Him face to face.

Saying it was Christ in the garden don't change anything for He said if you have seen me you have seen the Father.

There is a Celestrial body and we haven't seen one of them yet.

 

[webdog]

I'm sorry, Webdog, but your belief that God has a body is against the word of God. Jesus says in John 4 that "God is spirit." God does not have body!

Jesus has a body...Jesus is God.

If being made in God's image meant God has a body like ours, then Jesus would be wrong to say God is spirit.

It's odd that you separate the Two. Let US make man in OUR image.

I already answered you on the question about statements about God's back, hands, etc. There is also a passage referring to God's wings. So do you think he has wings?

"God does not have a body" is not an answer. Can you supply the passage that states God has wings?

How God walked in the Garden with Adam I can't explain but I think He was able to do this without a body, just as he led Moses out of Egypt with the pillar of fire and the cloud. He was able to manifest his presence is some way, but that does not mean he has a body.

You can't be serious! You don't know how God walked? Answer: feet! I think it's easy to explain! He did manifest His presence in "some way"...a body!

Besides the Mormons, the heretical Word Faith people also teach that God has a body. The view that God has a body is against the Bible.

You worry me in that you separate Jesus from God. Jesus is God. Jesus has a body. God has a body. You cannot separate that fact.

 

[Marcia]

We know that after He rose from the dead He ate, walked, talked, and was touched by Thomas. Do we gather from any place in Scripture that Christ looked something other than how He looked while human? No. We will have bodies one day that are like Christ's. They will be very real bodies...not spirit bodies floating around on clouds. .

This is a total red herring. This was not the issue! Of course I believe Jesus had a real body when he incarnated and we will have glorifed physical bodies in heaven.

I believe the Bible gives us plenty of clues that Christ had a body prior to being incarnated as a human being.

But he could not have had a physical body like ours before the incarnation because it would have been a created body and Jesus is not a creation. However he appeared, if he did so, it was not a physical material body like ours. When he incarnated he added human nature and a human body - he took on the weakness of the flesh. He did not incarnate before the incarnation.

You ignored my post about your post that God has a body. So I assume you still believe God has a body.

 

[webdog]

But he could not have had a physical body like ours before the incarnation because it would have been a created body and Jesus is not a creation.

Prove it, please, that if Jesus has always had a body it means He was created. Is Jesus omnipresent?

 

[webdog]

This is a total red herring. This was not the issue! Of course I believe Jesus had a real body when he incarnated and we will have glorifed physical bodies in heaven.

Ummm...it is the issue. You claim Jesus could not have a body prior to being incarnated as a human being. What did the angels say when Jesus ascended into Heaven..."whoa! Nice new body, Jesus!"

 

[Brother Bob]

Man, I thought my answer was really good but must not of been. :laugh:

 

[Marcia]

Ummm...it is the issue. You claim Jesus could not have a body prior to being incarnated as a human being. What did the angels say when Jesus ascended into Heaven..."whoa! Nice new body, Jesus!"

I don't see the point here. Jesus had a physical body after the incarnation, so of course he had one when he ascended. I never denied that. But the fact he had a physical body after the incarnation does not mean he had one before it.

You said

Jesus has a body...Jesus is God.

God the Father does not have a body. Why did Jesus say God is spirit? How do you reconcile that with your assertion that God the Father has a body, since that seems to be what you were saying?

Can you supply the passage that states God has wings?

Passages, not the passage! Here are some:

" Like an eagle that stirs up its nest, That hovers over its young, He spread His wings and caught them, He carried them on His pinions. Deut 32.11

" May the LORD reward your work, and your wages be full from the LORD, the God of Israel, under whose wings you have come to seek refuge." Ruth 2.12

How precious is Your lovingkindness, O God!And the children of men take refuge in the shadow of Your wings. Ps 36.7

Be gracious to me, O God, be gracious to me,For my soul takes refuge in You;And in the shadow of Your wings I will take refugeUntil destruction passes by. Ps 57.1

Let me dwell in Your tent forever;Let me take refuge in the shelter of Your wings. Ps 61.4

For You have been my help,And in the shadow of Your wings I sing for joy. Ps 63.7

He will cover you with His pinions,And under His wings you may seek refuge;His faithfulness is a shield and bulwark. Ps 91.4

So if you take God walking in the garden literally with feet, you should believe he has wings.

 

[Marcia]

Webdog said:
You worry me in that you separate Jesus from God. Jesus is God. Jesus has a body. God has a body. You cannot separate that fact.

I am not separating Jesus from God. Jesus and God are 2 Persons of the Trinity. The HS is the 3rd Person. There are 3 Persons in the Trinity. One Godhead but 3 distinct (not separate) co-eternal Persons. I am assuming you believe in the Trinity?

You don't believe that Jesus and God the Father are the same person, do you?

 

[blackbird]

This issue arose on another thread - I wanted to raise it here where I hope there will be some good responses!

I do not think that Jesus was not a man before the incarnation. The incarnation was all about Jesus becoming human, which is the same as becoming a man. That's another point, as the person disputing this said that being human and being a man are not the same thing, if I understood him correctly.

When Jesus incarnated, he became a man by adding on a human nature and body. The main support for this is Hebrews 2. The OT appearances of Jesus, even if he appeared as a man, do not say or mean he became a man at that time.

I am raising this here to clarify the issue.

Very true, Sister Marcia!! The false doctrine that teaches that Jesus was a man before His incarnation reaks of Mormanism!!!