Was Jesus born with exact same human nature as all of us?

[JonC]

Paul proclaims - sin revived and i died, - Jesus requires that we die to self, we also must put the flesh to death, DEATH is not simple theology not just the absence of life.

I disagree.

 

[HankD]

I disagree.

OK explain how Paul was alive without the law, then sin revived and he died yet he was still walking about.

What did Paul mean he died?. Did he become a vampire?
Did he need to be embalmed and buried?

 

[JonC]

OK explain how Paul was alive without the law, then sin revived and he died yet he was still walking about.

What did Paul mean he died?. Did he become a vampire?
Did he need to be embalmed and buried?

The law reveals our sinfulness. There are two "life's" here - one flesh and one spirit. Being dead in our trespasses is not talking about physical death but an absence of spiritual life.

And you do not kill vampires by embalming and burial. You use a garlic marinated steak.

 

[HankD]

The law reveals our sinfulness. There are two "life's" here - one flesh and one spirit. Being dead in our trespasses is not talking about physical death but an absence of spiritual life.

wait, Paul was alive until the law came then he died - then grace brought him back to life then later in life he died again until the resurrection then to die no more.

 

[JonC]

wait, Paul was alive until the law came then he died - then grace brought him back to life then later in life he died again until the resurrection then to die no more.

I believe the passage is talking about awareness. Paul was unaware if his sinfulness until taught of his state by the Law.

I do not believe that we are spiritually alive outside of Christ and when we learn of sin we die so that by grace we are saved. Ignorance is not salvation.

Physical death is the absence of physical life. Spiritual death is the absence of spiritual life.

 

[HankD]

I believe the passage is talking about awareness. Paul was unaware if his sinfulness until taught of his state by the Law.

I do not believe that we are spiritually alive outside of Christ and when we learn of sin we die so that by grace we are saved. Ignorance is not salvation.

Physical death is the absence of physical life. Spiritual death is the absence of spiritual life.

wait paul was alive then dead by the law then alive by grace but had to put his flesh to death by crucifixion before his body died -- whats going on with this death thing? how many deaths are there?

 

[JonC]

wait paul was alive then dead by the law then alive by grace but had to put his flesh to death by crucifixion before his body died -- whats going on with this death thing? how many deaths are there?

No. I believe that there is one death (physical death) in this age and the "second death" refers to the "lake of fire" at Judgment.

In other words, if the Bible is correct and the second death occurs at the end of this age when death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire then I do not see how there could have already been a second death (Adam could not have died spiritually without the Bible being incorrect).

But the state of being spiritually dead is different. Man does not start off spiritually alive and experience a spiritual death in order to be spiritually dead. Death refers to an absence of life (man needs to be "reborn" spiritually, given life....Christ became a "life giving Spirit").

Paul was dead spiritually. This became a reality to Paul when revealed to him by the Law. This does not mean Paul "died spiritually or physically" when he learned of the Law (and was taught his sin). But Paul became knowledgeable of this sin and his status before God.

 

[HankD]

No. I believe that there is one death (physical death) in this age and the "second death" refers to the "lake of fire" at Judgment.

In other words, if the Bible is correct and the second death occurs at the end of this age when death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire then I do not see how there could have already been a second death (Adam could not have died spiritually without the Bible being incorrect).

But the state of being spiritually dead is different. Man does not start off spiritually alive and experience a spiritual death in order to be spiritually dead. Death refers to an absence of life (man needs to be "reborn" spiritually, given life....Christ became a "life giving Spirit").

Paul was dead spiritually. This became a reality to Paul when revealed to him by the Law. This does not mean Paul "died spiritually or physically" when he learned of the Law (and was taught his sin). But Paul became knowledgeable of this sin and his status before God.

and the death of the "sarx" via "crucifixion/mortification"? is that physical, spiritual or a distinct "death"all its own?

 

[JonC]

and the death of the "sarx" via "crucifixion/mortification"? is that physical, spiritual or a distinct "death"all its own?

I believe the death of the flesh is physical. In terms of us putting to death the sins of the flesh (dying to sin) I believe this is pointing to Spiritual life (which is Christ).

Do you deny Scripture speaks of the second death as occurring at judgment?

 

[percho]

and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.' YLT

dying thou dost die

Is, that, the wages of sin? Is, that, the death, of, Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures 1 Cor 15:3?

If yes, when did it begin and when did it end?

 

[JonC]

and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.' YLT

dying thou dost die

Is, that, the wages of sin? Is, that, the death, of, Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures 1 Cor 15:3?

If yes, when did it begin and when did it end?

I believe so. The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. We die physically and are either judged for our sin outside of Christ or we are judged in Him where there is no condemnation.

"dying you shall die" (literally, "die" twice) positions death as emphatic (it emphasizes death as a reality).

In Genesis we see "die" twice and some translate it as you will die two deaths. This is inconsistent because everywhere else this type of wording is used we see it as emphatic (a definite) and translate it as a certainty (like "truly truly" which is "amen" twice).

So death would begin when sin entered the world (when Adam sinned death would be a certainty for mankind). And this death would end when we physically die (which is why Christ had to physically die). Spiritual life is a result of the Cross, not the cause of it. Adam is never said to have been "spiritually alive" and then experienced "spiritual death". In fact Scripture tells us all are appointed once to die and then the judgment, the judgment is for those who are condemned the "second death", and there is no spiritual life outside of Christ who became a life giving Spirit.

 

[HankD]

I believe the death of the flesh is physical. In terms of us putting to death the sins of the flesh (dying to sin) I believe this is pointing to Spiritual life (which is Christ).

Do you deny Scripture speaks of the second death as occurring at judgment?

i believe the second death is the pronouncement of eternal separation from GOD. For many years i believed in annihilation of the soul, not any more - but the point in time coordinates i dont know the point of inception.

 

[JonC]

i believe the second death is the pronouncement of eternal separation from GOD. For many years i believed in annihilation of the soul, not any more - but the point in time coordinates i dont know the point of inception.

What changed your mind?

 

[HankD]

I believe the death of the flesh is physical. In terms of us putting to death the sins of the flesh (dying to sin) I believe this is pointing to Spiritual life (which is Christ).

what is meant by the instruction to "crucify" or "mortify" the flesh?how is this death accomplished?

 

[HankD]

What changed your mind?

the book of revelation

Revelation 22
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Personally i dont see GOD as a torturer in the traditional sense, the lost would be tortured beyond bearing in His presence, so for eternity they are separated from Him pining away with the knowledge of what could have been.

 

[JonC]

what is meant by the instruction to "crucify" or "mortify" the flesh?how is this death accomplished?

I believe this is referring to repentance and is not accomplished in full in this lifetime.

 

[HankD]

I believe this is referring to repentance and is not accomplished in full in this lifetime.

ok

 

[percho]

I believe so. The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. We die physically and are either judged for our sin outside of Christ or we are judged in Him where there is no condemnation.

"dying you shall die" (literally, "die" twice) positions death as emphatic (it emphasizes death as a reality).

In Genesis we see "die" twice and some translate it as you will die two deaths. This is inconsistent because everywhere else this type of wording is used we see it as emphatic (a definite) and translate it as a certainty (like "truly truly" which is "amen" twice).

So death would begin when sin entered the world (when Adam sinned death would be a certainty for mankind). And this death would end when we physically die (which is why Christ had to physically die). Spiritual life is a result of the Cross, not the cause of it. Adam is never said to have been "spiritually alive" and then experienced "spiritual death". In fact Scripture tells us all are appointed once to die and then the judgment, the judgment is for those who are condemned the "second death", and there is no spiritual life outside of Christ who became a life giving Spirit.

I see Gen as, after eating you will be dead to God awaiting death and or that is, to be, dead in trespass and sins.

Now since Christ has died for our sins we are still dead and will die in the flesh yet; Col 3:3 for ye did die, and your life hath been hid with the Christ in God;

Also Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

 

[percho]

and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and the death shall not be any more, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor shall there be any more pain, because the first things did go away.' Rev 21:4

the last enemy is done away -- death; YLT

Can the above be, if anything that has died is still dead ? Whatever death means.

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus is the new Adam. He is the perfect representation of the first Adam, with no corruption in Him. There is no corruption from Mary in Him.

The Virgin birth happened by God's ordinance so no human corruption would be in him. God became human so that God would redeem corrupt man according to his choosing.

yes, as Adam tasted spiritual death, receiving a sin nature bent now away from God, as we all now have, save for Lord Jesus Himself.