Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
You have to wonder why a thread is started asking a question with no issue attached. Like "I wonder if Jesus had brown eyes?" Meaningless speculation. Was the second person of the trinity known as the Lamb of God before creation? Yes, 1 Peter 1:19-20.
What verse says the Second person of the Trinity was "eternally begotten?" None, it is from the Nicene Creed.
So by the numbers, the Second Person of the Trinity is eternal, hence never "begotten" or "fathered" or "brought into existence."
Next, the Second Person of the Trinity is referred to in scripture as the Son before the foundation of the world, so the role of sonship existed before creation.
When the Son of God, the second person of the trinity, became flesh, he was begotten, or fathered, or brought into physical being. That occurred at a specific point in time.
In summary, God the Son, the second person of the trinity is eternal and is the same yesterday, today and forever. He was not begotten.
Jesus in the flesh was begotten at a specific point in time, and so the incarnate Son was begotten, as to His fleshly body but not as to His eternal Spirit as God the Son.
Actually, the father begot the Son, and Both of them the Holy Spirit!
Eternally begotten....
was the Son eternally with the father, or did sonship start when the Word became flesh and dwelt among us?
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.
And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.
You have to wonder why a thread is started asking a question with no issue attached. Like "I wonder if Jesus had brown eyes?" Meaningless speculation. Was the second person of the trinity known as the Lamb of God before creation? Yes, 1 Peter 1:19-20.
What verse says the Second person of the Trinity was "eternally begotten?" None, it is from the Nicene Creed.
So by the numbers, the Second Person of the Trinity is eternal, hence never "begotten" or "fathered" or "brought into existence."
Next, the Second Person of the Trinity is referred to in scripture as the Son before the foundation of the world, so the role of sonship existed before creation.
When the Son of God, the second person of the trinity, became flesh, he was begotten, or fathered, or brought into physical being. That occurred at a specific point in time.
In summary, God the Son, the second person of the trinity is eternal and is the same yesterday, today and forever. He was not begotten.
Jesus in the flesh was begotten at a specific point in time, and so the incarnate Son was begotten, as to His fleshly body but not as to His eternal Spirit as God the Son.
You are asking about what is called the eternal generation of the Son.
The Nicene Creed reads:
Also, the Chalcedonian Creed:
Jesus said, of Himself, "before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58). Jesus is clearly claiming to be Jehovah God.
The Son is autotheos, inherently God. This does not present a problem within Nicene Christianity as Jesus being begotten of the Father is one of order within the godhead, not one of equality or eternality. The denial of the eternal generation of the Son was the error of Arius (Arianism) and its modern day stepchild, the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Your quotation of those two creeds is confirmation of Van's point (made in the other post). He said that the "eternal generation of the Son" is not found in Scripture.
The verse from John proves Christ's deity and his eternality. It does not prove eternal generation.
I admit that I am somewhat weak in this area, but when someone says, as Van did, that a concept is found in the creeds but not in Scripture that causes me to take note. I intend to study this out further. We are to examine all things. Hold fast to that which is true.
At the outset, however, the fact that you (1) went first to the creeds to prove your point, then (2) misapplied Scripture, then (3) demonized my position with heretical associations does not make you very credible in my eyes.
There may, in fact, be better proofs of the eternal generation of the Son, but it didn't come from you - at least not yet.
I used to believe this doctrine, I guess, because Calvin believed it and spoke often of it. But now I think I need to hold it at arm's length to take a closer look at it.
Philippians 2:5-7 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
I responded to the OP directly without reading any other posts. I wanted to answer it cleanly; without reading any other responses.
I think John 8:58 is a strong proof of the eternality of the Son, as the Son. Another is John 17:5:
"Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."
An oblique reference is found in Philippians:
The eternal generation of the Son is both a positive and negative doctrine. It is positive in that it is biblical. It is negative in that it is the logical antithesis of modalism or arianism. It is not an issue I debate often. I am quite convinced of the biblical basis for the eternality of the Son. I do get bothered at the exegetical gymnastics that are often employed in butchering the Son being begotten.
I do not understand what your last sentence means. Was he, the Son of God begotten or was he the Son of God not begotten. If begotten in what manner was he begotten? What was his name before he was begotten and after he was begotten. What does son mean? What does father mean? Can there be a father without offspring?
Did the Holy Spirit inspire words of which we thought we knew the meaning of but maybe we didn't?
I asked Tom a question in this thread, " Did Christ suffer from Multiple Personality Disorder," that went unanswered and the last poster was worried about being struck by lighting whether because of my post or not don't know.
If you asked me it must have been during my crunch time. I had both a heavy teaching schedule and a deadline for publishing. I am more free now. I vaguely remember something about it. Feel free to ask again.
You have to wonder why a thread is started asking a question with no issue attached. Like "I wonder if Jesus had brown eyes?" Meaningless speculation. Was the second person of the trinity known as the Lamb of God before creation? Yes, 1 Peter 1:19-20.
What verse says the Second person of the Trinity was "eternally begotten?" None, it is from the Nicene Creed.
So by the numbers, the Second Person of the Trinity is eternal, hence never "begotten" or "fathered" or "brought into existence."
Next, the Second Person of the Trinity is referred to in scripture as the Son before the foundation of the world, so the role of sonship existed before creation.
When the Son of God, the second person of the trinity, became flesh, he was begotten, or fathered, or brought into physical being. That occurred at a specific point in time.
In summary, God the Son, the second person of the trinity is eternal and is the same yesterday, today and forever. He was not begotten.
Jesus in the flesh was begotten at a specific point in time, and so the incarnate Son was begotten, as to His fleshly body but not as to His eternal Spirit as God the Son.
Does not, IMO negate the possibility of his being "begotten" eternally. This does not seem to follow. You are defining "begotten" to mean that one MUST necessarily have a beginning. I do not think that is the point though. The creed uses the phrase "eternally begotten"...It does not imply the Son's having to have been "brought into existence". It merely describes the fundamental nature of the relationship, and that relationship would (you are correct) not have changed in its fundamental nature.So by the numbers, the Second Person of the Trinity is eternal, hence never "begotten" or "fathered" or "brought into existence."
I do not understand what your last sentence means. Was he, the Son of God begotten or was he the Son of God not begotten. If begotten in what manner was he begotten? What was his name before he was begotten and after he was begotten. What does son mean? What does father mean? Can there be a father without offspring?
Did the Holy Spirit inspire words of which we thought we knew the meaning of but maybe we didn't?
The Son was begotten in that He proceeded forth from the Father. This proceeding forth can mean one of two things: 1. The Son did not exist until He was begotten. 2. The Son existed but was sent forth by the Father. If the answer is #1 then modalism, and not the Trinity, is the correct Christian doctrine to explain the godhead. If #2 is correct then the integrity of the godhead is preserved as well as the eternal generation of the Son. Passages I would use in support of #2 are John 8:58; 17:5; Hebrews 1:2.
He was both man and God. "God the Son", as a phrase, is not found in Scripture. Not sure what you are asking in the last one. The Lamb was the only-begotten Son of God.Let me ask.
Rev. 13:8 the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Was the Lamb of God, a man or God? Was the Lamb, God the Son, find that phrase in scripture, or was the Lamb the only begotten Son of God the Father.
Yes and yes.I hope Tom is reading this also for I will refresh his memory. I had asked him.
Did Jesus pay tithes in Abraham? Jesus was also the seed of Abraham was he not?
The context tells us the purpose for this information:Ultimately, to show the superiority of the New Covenant in Christ. In nearest context, it would be found at the "therefore" of verse 10. I am not sure where you are going with this, but I don't at all see Levi being "in the loins of Abraham" as a fitting proof for the Son being in the Father. But perhaps I am misreading your purpose here?Why are we given the information concerning Levi having payed tithes in father Abraham. Does it show that the Son was always in the Father?
This is Christ speaking, while still in the process of being the Lamb of God. "Lamb" is mainly a description of His Messianic mission.John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Is this the Lamb speaking?
I think we are shifting away from the intended meaning of μονογενὴς in John 1:18 to an altogether different type of "begetting" in Genesis.Has anyone else beside Jesus been begotten of God within a woman, the help meet taken from the man, Adam, who was created in the image of God?
Still not clear on your thoughts here, so I can't say.Do the thoughts above take anything away from the Son of God or do they magnify the living God?
The question is a bit too complicated for me to understand. Could you break it down or rephrase?From the foundation of the world was the first man Adam to be the ultimate creation of God or from the foundation of the world was the ultimate creation of God to be the last Adam the Lamb of God, resurrected from the dead, thou art my Son this day have I begotten thee?
Are we speaking of image of Christ vs. Adam's?Which image above would we prefer to be resurrected (as)?
As for myself:-- Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
The Son was begotten in that He proceeded forth from the Father. This proceeding forth can mean one of two things: 1. The Son did not exist until He was begotten. 2. The Son existed but was sent forth by the Father. If the answer is #1 then modalism, and not the Trinity, is the correct Christian doctrine to explain the godhead. If #2 is correct then the integrity of the godhead is preserved as well as the eternal generation of the Son. Passages I would use in support of #2 are John 8:58; 17:5; Hebrews 1:2.
You are proving "a" then claiming "b" was proven.
That Jesus is God is supported by John 8:58, i.e. before Abraham, I am. But that is not the issue.
That God the Son existed before the world was is supported by John 17:5. But that is not the issue.
That God (the Father) unilaterally appointed God (the Son) to be His Lamb, the Messiah, the Christ is supported by Hebrews 1:2. But that is not the issue.
You are claiming that when the Father chose God the Son to be His Redeemer, His Chosen One, that equates with being begotten in eternity, hence, Christ was eternally begotten.
This is simply a definitional argument, saying being chosen or appointed is a definition of "begotten."
I would have no objection to claiming as doctrine that God the Son was "chosen" eternally, before the foundation of the world to be the Lamb of God (1 Peter 1:19-20) but to refer to this appointment as being begotten only adds confusion, not clarity.
As I said, the incarnate Son was begotten, and was sent by the Father, and was given by the Father, and proceeded forth from the Father, John 8:42. But these references, being sent, being given, proceeding forth and being begotten all occur in time about 2016 years ago, rather than the absurd idea of being proceeding before creation and traveling oh so slowly. Not credible.
Last point, claim something that happens in time, actually happened before creation. All these time travel arguments are simply an effort to nullify what scripture says in order to shoe-horn man-made doctrine into scripture. Revelation 13:8 does not say the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. The ESV mistranslates "apo = from" as "pro = before" but just about all other modern translations say "from the foundation of the world." Then of course, it is the names that were not written in the Lamb's book from the foundation of the world, rather than the Lamb being slain before the foundation of the world. Both the names were written or not, and the slaying occurred in time and not before creation.