Was Jesus ever disobediant?

[T Alan]

When Jesus was a baby did he cry?
When Jesus was a baby did he cry to get what he wanted?
Is a baby crying to get what they want a form of manipulation?
Did Jesus manipulate His mother in this manner?


I saw this picture on Facebook today. First off, let me say the image is not the toddler "Jesus" LORD of lord's future savior of the elect of God. But does stimulate an interesting question.
As I know this board is blessed with many "Theologians" I wanted to post it here for opinions.

The bible is silent on Jesus' childhood. The picture is meant to depict Jesus
and Mary at bath time. Someone on FB said that Jesus was never disobedient."
I said Jesus was human and in that as a child probably went through the learning period that all children went through like "crying to manipulate" which would include at the least mild disobedience such as implicated in the picture.

Thoughts please. Any biblical leads?

 

[Aaron]

Christ was an extraordinary child, not an ordinary child. There was no foolishness bound in His heart. No rod of correction was needed.

 

[T Alan]

Christ was an extraordinary child, not an ordinary child. There was no foolishness bound in His heart. No rod of correction was needed.

I don't recall reading this. Would you give me the Scripture reference? Thanks.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Disobedient to God?
No.

Disobedient toward the enemies of God?
Sometimes.

Disobedient toward parents?
Jesus reacted according to his ability to be obedient according to His age and maturity. It would do His parents no good to demand that He not soil His diaper when He was not old enough to have control of His bodily functions.

Two other possible instances of disobedience:

1. When Jesus did not stay with His family and friends as they traveled to and from Jerusalem when He was 12. They realized He was missing, and searched for a few days to locate Him.

2. When His mother and brothers came to see Him to take Him home because they thought He was mentally disturbed. Did He go with them? Nope.

Please note, disobedience is a different thing from sin. The original poster seems to understand this, but others may not.

 

[Revmitchell]

Disobedience equals sin. Jesus did not sin. It is useless and futile to try to impose any of that on Jesus. Had he sinned He would not have been God and would not be qualified to go to the cross and our faith would be in vein.

There is nothing intellectual or edifying about dumb questions like is in the op.

 

[Van]

Jesus was sinless, so nothing He did went against the will of God. So babies that do not know their right hand from their left may (repeat may) not be storing up wrath when they are learning obedience. But at some point, they know what they should do, and then do something else, and the process of storing up wrath begins.

Another point, sometimes Jesus followed His discernment of what God wanted Him to do, overriding the wishes of His parents. Again, we can only conclude His action did not pile up any wrath.

 

[T Alan]

Disobedience equals sin. Jesus did not sin. It is useless and futile to try to impose any of that on Jesus. Had he sinned He would not have been God and would not be qualified to go to the cross and our faith would be in vein.

There is nothing intellectual or edifying about dumb questions like is in the op.

Of all the intelligent things you could have said. You chose this. I am disappointed by you. Not surprised but disappointed as I've read other responses you've made in other threads that had a tone of intelligence. If you could put aside your disdain for me you could add to the conversation without the, the, the.....

Disobedient to God?
No.

Disobedient toward the enemies of God?
Sometimes.

Disobedient toward parents?
Jesus reacted according to his ability to be obedient according to His age and maturity. It would do His parents no good to demand that He not soil His diaper when He was not old enough to have control of His bodily functions.

Two other possible instances of disobedience:

1. When Jesus did not stay with His family and friends as they traveled to and from Jerusalem when He was 12. They realized He was missing, and searched for a few days to locate Him.

2. When His mother and brothers came to see Him to take Him home because they thought He was mentally disturbed. Did He go with them? Nope.

Please note, disobedience is a different thing from sin. The original poster seems to understand this, but others may not.

Thanks, my position also.

Jesus was sinless, so nothing He did went against the will of God. So babies that do not know their right hand from their left may (repeat may) not be storing up wrath when they are learning obedience. But at some point, they know what they should do, and then do something else, and the process of storing up wrath begins.

Another point, sometimes Jesus followed His discernment of what God wanted Him to do, overriding the wishes of His parents. Again, we can only conclude His action did not pile up any wrath.

Another fine response. Thanks.

 

[Marooncat79]

It is called impassability. Look it up

 

[JonC]

[

When Jesus was a baby did he cry?

I believe so.

When Jesus was a baby did he cry to get what he wanted?

Babies typically cry to get what they want or need.

Is a baby crying to get what they want a form of manipulation?

No, I don’t see how a baby’s cry can be said to constitute manipulation. Manipulation denotes an attempt at controlling someone to serve one’s self interest. Babies cry to communicate their own wants/needs. Manipulation typically comes later.

Did Jesus manipulate His mother in this manner?

No, but I’m sure as a baby he didn’t say “Hey Mom, I need food.” He cried.
I think that the problem is not all of our developmental experiences can be called sin. Jesus became man, and this human experience was necessary. We are also taught that Jesus learned and grew.

 

[T Alan]

Those questions were basically just for thought regarding the latter matter of disobedience. However, it has been stated and I would have to research for the source, that babies learn that when they cry the mother appears and they get what they want. So, as the baby cries they learn to get what they want say food, they cry. The baby as it gets older tries to apply that same action re action to other things, toys etc. so in that manner they manipulate the actions of the mother. mother doesn't want baby to cry mother supplies attention or toy to baby.

I say unequivocally, I in no way think Jesus to have sinned. I believe Him to be sinless from birth to present time. I thought this would stimulate some good discussion to benefit others that may wonder about things but never post.

 

[T Alan]

I think that the problem is not all of our developmental experiences can be called sin. Jesus became man, and this human experience was necessary. We are also taught that Jesus learned and grew.

I believe this also. That was my point to those on FB who were ranting about the image and what it portrayed.

 

[T Alan]

It is called impassability. Look it up

"Classic theism teaches that God is impassible — not subject to suffering, pain, or the ebb and flow of involuntary passions. In the words of the Westminster Confession of Faith, God is "without body, parts, or passions, immutable." [1] (excerpt take from http://www.theopedia.com/Impassibility_of_God)

Okay MaroonCat79, Here's a definition. Now if you will tell everyone watching today how to apply this to the questions at hand.

 

[righteousdude2]

Disobedience equals sin. Jesus did not sin. It is useless and futile to try to impose any of that on Jesus. Had he sinned He would not have been God and would not be qualified to go to the cross and our faith would be in vein.

There is nothing intellectual or edifying about dumb questions like is in the op.

Anyone who reads the Bible and knows anything about the deity of the Christ child and who he was would never consider asking this question. I did hear this similar question from an atheist arguing about Christ being the Son of God, so this maybe nothing more than an attempt to engage others in conversation for the sake of conversing.

BTW - I loved you answer.

 

[Baptist Believer]

"Classic theism teaches that God is impassible — not subject to suffering, pain, or the ebb and flow of involuntary passions. In the words of the Westminster Confession of Faith, God is "without body, parts, or passions, immutable."

Yes, I reject impassibility.

Impassibility works great for deism and the god of the Greek philosophers, but not for the God of scripture.

That would mean that God does not get emotionally involved in the lives of humankind (directly contrary to scripture). Moreover, God does not endure suffering - so the pain that Jesus felt was only physical, not emotional since He would not have cared about being betrayed.

It's interesting that Mormons love to quote impassibility from the Westminster Confession, point out how false the claim that God is emotionally disconnected from Him people is, then use that as leverage to say that the entire statement is wrong and that God has a body. That's obviously not true, but the error of Christians who hold to the classic view of impassibility as defined by the Westminster Confession gives false teachers an opportunity to deceive.

And yes, I know that a lot of prominent Christian leaders throughout history supported and defended passibility. That doesn't make it true.

 

[The Biblicist]

I don't recall reading this. Would you give me the Scripture reference? Thanks.

I don't recall reading anything about his childhood in Scripture. Can you give me a scriptural reference for any question you asked about Christ?

I will give you a scriptural reference to answer your basic question did he sin:

1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

As far as actions of sin - He did no sin. So as an infant he was an extraordinary child because "neither was guile found IN HIS MOUTH"



2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


By experience in life he "knew no sin" experientially.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

His whole life from birth to death was "without sin" just as the ceremonially chosen sacrificial sheep must be "without blemish or spot".

Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

He was an EXTRAODINARY infant "separate from sinners" as he was an EXTRAORINARY child and young man "separate from sinners" because he was "holy, harmless, undefiled".

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

In regard to his human nature there was no sin "in him." That is not true of other human infants as they come into this world with the law of sin in them manifested by death in and outside of the womb.

Therefore, when we are dealing with SILENCE and the Bible is SILENT about his infancy and childhood, we are to interpret SILENCE by the precepts and principle provided by Scripture and the above scriptures provide the guidelines for SPECULATION.


Infants DIE and death is the condemnation of SIN just as Paul argues in Romans 5:13-14 because where there is no law there can be no death as the is the basis for the condemnation to death and infants die, and thus are UNDER THE LAW'S CONDEMNATION. They are born with a sinful nature and it is self-evident to any parent as has any parent ever had to TEACH infants to sin or do evil? No! what they must do is TEACH them to do good! Why, because good does not come natural.

Joseph and Mary did not have to teach Jesus to do good, as it came NATURAL to him because he was born "without sin" and no sin could be found "in him" by nature.

However, it seems you are doing what the enemies of Christ attempted to do and so Jesus asked:

Joh 8:46 ¶ Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

 

[T Alan]

Anyone who reads the Bible and knows anything about the deity of the Christ child and who he was would never consider asking this question. I did hear this similar question from an atheist arguing about Christ being the Son of God, so this maybe nothing more than an attempt to engage others in conversation for the sake of conversing.

BTW - I loved you answer.

BTW for those of you watching that may not get the slick stuff posted by those with high intellect, I was just named as a person that doesn't read the bible and doesn't know anything about the deity of the Christ child and who he was, then I was compared to an atheist that Mr. righteousdude2 "heard" a question from.
Next ,he will post on the main frame a topic speaking to rudeness and bullies as in "why don't the members of this board not adhere to building one another up" and "does this board have more than it's share of Christian bullies" and "rudeness is a sin, yet it flows like milk and honey".
That was as rich as ...well you know don't cha.
:sleeping_2:

 

[Aaron]

I don't recall reading this. Would you give me the Scripture reference? Thanks.

The fact that He was an extraordinary child begins at the fact of His extraordinary conception.

Do you need a Scripture reference for that?

Not starting out as an extraordinary child, it's vain to project your own imagination of how Christ behaved based on your experience with ordinary children.

You assert that Christ cried as an infant. I don't recall reading that. Would you give me the Scripture reference? Thanks.

 

[righteousdude2]

When Jesus was a baby did he cry?
When Jesus was a baby did he cry to get what he wanted?
Is a baby crying to get what they want a form of manipulation?
Did Jesus manipulate His mother in this manner?


I saw this picture on Facebook today. First off, let me say the image is not the toddler "Jesus" LORD of lord's future savior of the elect of God. But does stimulate an interesting question.
As I know this board is blessed with many "Theologians" I wanted to post it here for opinions.

The bible is silent on Jesus' childhood. The picture is meant to depict Jesus
and Mary at bath time. Someone on FB said that Jesus was never disobedient."
I said Jesus was human and in that as a child probably went through the learning period that all children went through like "crying to manipulate" which would include at the least mild disobedience such as implicated in the picture.

Thoughts please. Any biblical leads?

Did this photo get published in the French paper Chalie He do? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[righteousdude2]

BTW for those of you watching that may not get the slick stuff posted by those with high intellect, I was just named as a person that doesn't read the bible and doesn't know anything about the deity of the Christ child and who he was, then I was compared to an atheist that Mr. righteousdude2 "heard" a question from.
Next ,he will post on the main frame a topic speaking to rudeness and bullies as in "why don't the members of this board not adhere to building one another up" and "does this board have more than it's share of Christian bullies" and "rudeness is a sin, yet it flows like milk and honey".
That was as rich as ...well you know don't cha.
:sleeping_2:

This was word for word a question I read from an atheist. If you are offended sorry. I just found it strange. I also find your question to be more empty space. You have heard of race baiter .... well this question is her to draw people into discussion with you about a non topic. Besides nothing I could ever say would keep you from posting arcane questions.

BTW - I happen to like some of you posts. This one was just a little silly. But it looks like you are getting good response. Ciao!

 

[Zaac]

Disobedient to God?


Please note, disobedience is a different thing from sin. The original poster seems to understand this, but others may not.

Disobedience is ALWAYS sin if it's at odds with God's truth and His commands.

As was said, Jesus was sinless. He did not dishonor his parents by disobeying them.

If the Spirit of God was directing Him to go preach in the Temple, then his parents would have been the ones out of alignment with God in telling Him to not go and do so if they did. God's commands trump the parents' commands.

Honestly, I wouldn't lose any sleep over such discussions T Alan. They just bog people down. It's much easier to , in faith, trust that Jesus---God in the flesh---lived a sinless life.

If He didn't, then none of us are saved.

We don't have to understand the dynamics of How He did it. But we have to trust that He did if we truly believe Him capable of taking on our sin and subsequently forgiving us and saving us.