Was Judas ever saved

[standingfirminChrist]

and the point to doing that is...?

If they can somehow convince you that Judas was saved, then they have got you believing their false doctrine concerning 1,000 years in outer darkness/hell.

Judas went to his reward, but only for a thousand years seems to be the logical conclusion.

 

[lbaker]

If they can somehow convince you that Judas was saved, then they have got you believing their false doctrine concerning 1,000 years in outer darkness/hell.

Judas went to his reward, but only for a thousand years seems to be the logical conclusion.

Ah, so....

Okay, how do y'all (ME/KA folks) deal with this passage from John 6:

64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
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70Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

That certainly appears to indicate that Judas was an unbeliever.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Many who try to prove you can lose your spiritual salvation use Judas to "prove" it, btw. Many people, besides those who espouse the doctrine of the Kingdom that Jesus and John preached, see the truth that Judas was saved. I even know some OSAS proponents who are KDer's and EIREITADer's, who "show" that Judas was so bad that God made an exception.

So, to claim that only those who believe in the Kingdom of the Heavens are the ones who see it is disingenious at best.

But, on to the question that no one seems to want to answer:

What is a "sinner"?

 

[Amy.G]

ME guys are so busy trying to see a doctrine of hell in the parables that the true teachings of Jesus has eluded them.

 

[Amy.G]

Many who try to prove you can lose your spiritual salvation use Judas to "prove" it, btw. Many people, besides those who espouse the doctrine of the Kingdom that Jesus and John preached, see the truth that Judas was saved. I even know some OSAS proponents who are KDer's and EIREITADer's, who "show" that Judas was so bad that God made an exception.

So, to claim that only those who believe in the Kingdom of the Heavens are the ones who see it is disingenious at best.

But, on to the question that no one seems to want to answer:

What is a "sinner"?

I don't who these people are that you have referred to, but none of us involved in this debate believe that one can lose their salvation or that God made an exception, or any other thing in this post. So, your point is moot. Why not deal with the beliefs of the people you are actually debating with at this moment instead of bringing in the beliefs of others that have nothing to do with this discussion?

Why do you keep asking what a sinner is? Don't you know?

 

[Accountable]

If they can somehow convince you that Judas was saved, then they have got you believing their false doctrine concerning 1,000 years in outer darkness/hell.

Judas went to his reward, but only for a thousand years seems to be the logical conclusion.

Why does it always go back to 1,000 years in hell for you?

I know many who deny ME who teach and preach that Judas was saved.

 

[Accountable]

ME guys are so busy trying to see a doctrine of hell in the parables that the true teachings of Jesus has eluded them.

You don't see hell in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus?
What perversion of the bible are you getting this idea from?

 

[lbaker]

I know many who deny ME who teach and preach that Judas was saved.

Okay, I used to think that way too, until some brother on BB brought John 6 to my attention. That changed my mind.

So, the question is........what about John 6?

 

[Amy.G]

You don't see hell in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus?
What perversion of the bible are you getting this idea from?

What a silly question.

Of course there is hell in that parable. But, it doesn't teach "your" doctrine of hell as punishment for believers.

The rich man in this parable was damned forever, not temporarily.

 

[Accountable]

What a silly question.

Of course there is hell in that parable. But, it doesn't teach "your" doctrine of hell as punishment for believers.

The rich man in this parable was damned forever, not temporarily.

Since you say that it says this, I will go back and read it again. Give me a few minutes to look it over.

 

[Accountable]

What a silly question.

Of course there is hell in that parable. But, it doesn't teach "your" doctrine of hell as punishment for believers.

The rich man in this parable was damned forever, not temporarily.

Sorry Amy but just as you say it does not back up our stance, I must say that it does not back your stance.

The Bible DOES NOT say that the rich man was damned forever.

Try again?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Why does it always go back to 1,000 years in hell for you?

I know many who deny ME who teach and preach that Judas was saved.

Then they are teaching and preaching a lie... thereby deceiving many.

 

[Amy.G]

Sorry Amy but just as you say it does not back up our stance, I must say that it does not back your stance.

The Bible DOES NOT say that the rich man was damned forever.

Try again?

Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

How do you see the rich man escaping his torment?

 

[Amy.G]

The subject of this thread is Judas.

Why do the ME'rs keep changing the subject?

 

[Hope of Glory]

The subject of this thread is Judas.

Why do the ME'rs keep changing the subject?

Seems that it's the Kingdom Deniers who keep saying that Jesus came to save sinners, as if that statement proves something.

Apparently they think that it has something to do with Judas.

Ask them why they brought up sinners, not those who espouse the gospel of the Kingdom that Jesus and John came preaching.

But, what is a "sinner"? Why won't you answer a simple question? Why are you avoiding it? What are you trying to hide? Is this just another diversionary tactic? What are you afraid of?

What is a sinner?

 

[lbaker]

The Rich Man and Lazarus story follows right along in the same discourse as the parables of the coin, sheep, and son. So, it is probably a safe bet that it is (again) a reference to the unbelieving Jews. The rich man represents the Jews, rich in spiritual blessings - the Law, the prophets, the Temple, etc. etc. etc. Lazarus is the poor gentiles, having to scrape by with whatever scraps of spiritual knowledge they can glean from the Jews' leftovers.

But, SURPRISE, when they both die it is the poor gentile who is saved and not the Jew who enjoyed all the spiritual blessings of an heir of Abraham, but ignored the Messiah when He appeared. As Jesus says "they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead."

Since this is an unsaved, unrepentant person that is condemned it looks like he is stuck there with no "get out of hell free" card.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Seems that it's the Kingdom Deniers who keep saying that Jesus came to save sinners, as if that statement proves something.

Apparently they think that it has something to do with Judas.

Ask them why they brought up sinners, not those who espouse the gospel of the Kingdom that Jesus and John came preaching.

But, what is a "sinner"? Why won't you answer a simple question? Why are you avoiding it? What are you trying to hide? Is this just another diversionary tactic? What are you afraid of?

What is a sinner?

You don't believe Jesus came to save sinners?

 

[lbaker]

What is a sinner?

Duh, someone who sins, who obeys his/her own will over God's will, either on purpose or in ignorance.

Some are saved sinners and some are lost sinners, but we're all sinners.

Okay, there, I said it and I'm glad!

Now, take it and run with it...

 

[Amy.G]

Seems that it's the Kingdom Deniers who keep saying that Jesus came to save sinners, as if that statement proves something.

Apparently they think that it has something to do with Judas.

Ask them why they brought up sinners, not those who espouse the gospel of the Kingdom that Jesus and John came preaching.

But, what is a "sinner"? Why won't you answer a simple question? Why are you avoiding it? What are you trying to hide? Is this just another diversionary tactic? What are you afraid of?

What is a sinner?

It is you guys who keep changing the subject and you are doing it again now.

Here is the definition for sinner from Vines:

1) one who owes another, a debtor

a) one held by some obligation, bound by some duty

b) one who has not yet made amends to whom he has injured:

1) one who owes God penalty or whom God can demand punishment as something due, i.e. a sinner

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I am so glad that even though I am a sinner, Christ is my defense. I have yet to see a defense attorney that has been retained by someone to act as prosecutor of that person.