Was Mary a Biological Mother or a Surrogate Mother for Jesus?

[Eliyahu]

Do you not believe God could of caused Mary to have a perfect egg, if he could receive someone into heaven in a chariot of fire, or create man in the first place. I do not think that Eve's eggs had those faults until the fall, do you?


BBob,

If you read my post, you could have understood the importance of Blemish and Spotless personality.

Eve's egg didn't have the faults until her FALL. She was deceived first ( 1 Tim 2:14).
However, after the Sin entered the world, everyone has become defective in many ways,and no human being has been free of defects or spots.

YOu should have read some of my posts before. I already explained the misunderstanding by many people about the Almighty God, about the Omnipotent God. They misunderstand there is nothing that God cannot do.

However, there are several things that God cannot do.

God cannot accept the sinners into Heaven, cannot forgive the sins without punishing them, cannot forgive the sinners who chose not to believe the Redeemer Jesus Christ, cannot force and torture the sinners to believe what Jesus has done because it contradicts His lovingkindness and longsuffering, etc.

The important attribute of God is that He cannot forgive the sinners and sins without punishing them. That's why Jesus Christ came into this world, so that He may be punished on our behalf at the Cross.
If God can make the ovums perfect, then He can make the Sperms perfect as well, then Jesus didn't have to suffer the terrible and painful death at the Cross.
Then why did God send His beloved Son to suffer the most painful and shameful death at the Cross?

Jesus gave us the answer. He prayed a lot at the Gethshemane, praying with bloodlike sweats, and confirmed His absolute obedience to the Father and confirmed that THERE WAS NTHER WAY than His own dying at the Cross. Therefore He went to the Calvary bravely,and won the victory at the Cross when He cried " IT IS FINISHED"

There was no way other than the Cross.

If God could have perfected ovums and sperms which do not know repent and believe in the Redeemer, why didn't God use such method since the Fall of human beings?

You have not thought about this kind of fundamental problems, I am sure, and therefore you are brave to claim the Biological Motherhood.

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu please give your scriptural support to support your theory that Mary was only a surrogate.

BBob,

Word became Flesh ( John 1:14)

Biological Motherhood cannot be compatible with the Incarnation " Word became Flesh" because Biological Motherhood means the ovum of Mary became the flesh of Jesus, which means Flesh became Flesh.

Word became Flesh, which is the fundamental and unique Truth of Christianity.

Please explain your theory always in connection with Word became Flesh.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

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[FONT=']SFIC: I believe the virgin birth is unique and miraculous because it necessitated God the Father placing the pure, incorruptible, perfect and complete seed within the womb of a woman.

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[FONT=&quot]HP: Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [/FONT]

 

[annsni]

Did God ever create a human out of nothing?

 

[cowboymatt]

This whole issue revolves around the no-eggers saying that Jesus had to not be corrupted by Mary's sinful egg...but there is no direct evidence in the Bible that sin or a stain from sin is passed down genetically. The Bible says that Adam and Eve received some punishment for their sin, including death, but not that sin was passed down to us through sex. And the NT claims that everyone sins and that all have a natural propensity to sin, but this is more likely to originate in our free wills and not in our genetics.

If someone could prove incontrovertibly that a biblical passage absolutely and explicitly says that sin is passed down through sex and genetics, then I would be more likely to be a no-egger. But this won't happen since people have been looking for biblical support for Augustine's position for 1500+ years.

 

[Brother Bob]

If you read my post, you could have understood the importance of Blemish and Spotless personality.

Eve's egg didn't have the faults until her FALL. She was deceived first ( 1 Tim 2:14).
However, after the Sin entered the world, everyone has become defective in many ways,and no human being has been free of defects or spots.

YOu should have read some of my posts before. I already explained the misunderstanding by many people about the Almighty God, about the Omnipotent God. They misunderstand there is nothing that God cannot do.

However, there are several things that God cannot do.

God cannot accept the sinners into Heaven, cannot forgive the sins without punishing them, cannot forgive the sinners who chose not to believe the Redeemer Jesus Christ, cannot force and torture the sinners to believe what Jesus has done because it contradicts His lovingkindness and longsuffering, etc.

The important attribute of God is that He cannot forgive the sinners and sins without punishing them. That's why Jesus Christ came into this world, so that He may be punished on our behalf at the Cross.
If God can make the ovums perfect, then He can make the Sperms perfect as well, then Jesus didn't have to suffer the terrible and painful death at the Cross.
Then why did God send His beloved Son to suffer the most painful and shameful death at the Cross?

Jesus gave us the answer. He prayed a lot at the Gethshemane, praying with bloodlike sweats, and confirmed His absolute obedience to the Father and confirmed that THERE WAS NTHER WAY than His own dying at the Cross. Therefore He went to the Calvary bravely,and won the victory at the Cross when He cried " IT IS FINISHED"

There was no way other than the Cross.

If God could have perfected ovums and sperms which do not know repent and believe in the Redeemer, why didn't God use such method since the Fall of human beings?

You have not thought about this kind of fundamental problems, I am sure, and therefore you are brave to claim the Biological Motherhood.

Oh, but you see, I believe infants are without sin. They are appointed to die naturally. Also, they are born that when they

come to know God and glorify Him not as God they sin, but I believe if they die as infants, heaven is their home because

nothing has been charged to them.

Jesus knew He was God, so He didn't reach an age to Glorify God for He already was God. I apoligize for not reading all of your

posts but you seem to be saying that God could not have caused Jesus to be born without sin, even though it was Mary's egg.

I think God can and did do that. Remember John the Baptist leaped in his mother's womb, just from the message. I guess that

might give us something else to think about. John was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb. He also was a man

sent of God to bear witness of the light. It was already set in order before John was ever born. Wonder if John ever sinned???

BBob,

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: Did God ever create a human out of nothing?

HP: No, not unless you call Gods 'Words' as nothing.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BB: Wonder if John ever sinned???

HP: That is new thread material.

 

[DHK]

taken from The Virgin Birth [FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

This guy is a Charismatic who believes he can lose his salvation.

 

[Eliyahu]

Brother Bob,

Please approach this matter as the Berean approach ( Acts 17:11)

If you deeply consider this matter, it is very much crystal clear that Biological motherhood cannot stand.

It seems that you didn't check the previous posts and arguments very much before you participate in this debate.

Shortly speaking, the Bible verses which support the Surrogate motherhood are as follows:

1. John 1:14

2. Hebrews 7:1-5 Son of God had no earthly father, no mother.

3. Hebrews 10:5-9 Body was prepared by God

4. Hebrews 1:5 God gave birth to the Son

5. John 1:3 - In Him there was Life

6. Genesis 18:1-15 God appeared to Abraham in flesh, washed the feet, ate the butter and meat, ate the bread spoke with the human being, with Sarah and Abraham. The same God is Jesus Christ.

7. God appeared to Jacob and wrestled with him and spoke with him saying " I am God of Bethel" ( Gen 31:13- Gen 32) God appeared in flesh.

8. 1 Cor 15 45-50 the first Adam was from the earth, and the second Adam was from above, which means the Second Adam didn't belong to the first Adam while Mary belongs to the first Adam.

9. The sacrifice should have been spotless and blemish 1 Peter 1:19

10. Job 25:4 ( indirect reference)

11. Matthew 1:20 which uses genao verb for conceive since Genao verb used mostly Begat, begotten. In other words, before He came out of Mary, Jesus was already born by Holy Spirit as a perfecgt human being.

12. Galatians 3:28- which denies the importance of the biological bloodline.

13. John 8:56-8 which explains that Jesus identifies Himself as the same person who saw Abraham.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The article has nothing to do with losing one's Salvation.

The article is truth.

Just because he believe he can lose his salvation does not negate the truth he gave in the article.

HP believes that Joseph's seed was used to impregnate Mary. Does that one err in truth negate all truths he holds to?

 

[annsni]

HP: No, not unless you call Gods 'Words' as nothing.

God didn't speak a human being into existence. He formed Adam from the dust and Eve from the rib of Adam. He formed them not by His words but by His hands.

So in following that, don't you think, since Jesus was fully human, that God would have formed His flesh from something and not nothing?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

God prepared Him a body. it was placed in her by the Holy Ghost.

 

[DHK]

Shortly speaking, the Bible verses which support the Surrogate motherhood are as follows:

Do you believe there are two Jesus's: one that is human and the other that is divine? It seems so, or that you can't differentiate between the two. Almost all the references that you give refer to the divinity of Christ to the exclusion of the humanity of Christ. Why is it that you do not deal with the humanity of Christ which is essentially what this thread is about.

 

[Eliyahu]

Oh, but you see, I believe infants are without sin. They are appointed to die naturally. Also, they are born that when they

come to know God and glorify Him not as God they sin, but I believe if they die as infants, heaven is their home because

nothing has been charged to them.

Jesus knew He was God, so He didn't reach an age to Glorify God for He already was God. I apoligize for not reading all of your

posts but you seem to be saying that God could not have caused Jesus to be born without sin, even though it was Mary's egg.

I think God can and did do that. Remember John the Baptist leaped in his mother's womb, just from the message. I guess that

might give us something else to think about. John was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb. He also was a man

sent of God to bear witness of the light. It was already set in order before John was ever born. Wonder if John ever sinned???

BBob,

1. having sin nature and comitting sin is different issue. Infants may have not committed sins, but they contain the sin natures.

2. I mentioned Jesus was the one who wrestled with Jacob. Bible says Moses esteemed the reproach of Christ better than all the treasure of Egypt. The same person didn't need any sin-stricken flesh, but He could bring the same- the second Adam's flesh for Himself. Jesus is the One who created the universe from NOTHING. He created the world by Word. He could create a new, blemish and spotless flesh by Word Himself and the Life was in Him too.

3. I don't think anyone lived sinlessly except Jesus Christ, on this world. Therefore John was not sinless.

 

[DHK]

that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

God prepared Him a body. it was placed in her by the Holy Ghost.

God prepared a body from a fertilized egg. As long as you deny this fact you deny the rest of Scripture or refuse to accept it. All Scripture harmonizes together and none of it contradicts the other.
"A virgin shall conceive (an egg shall be fertilized) and bring forth a son (nine months later), and thou shalt call his name Immanuel."

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Scripture does not say God prepared Him a fertilized egg, now does it? Nor does it say God prepared Him a body from a fertilized egg.

As pointed out over and over, sinful flesh would have been passed on to Christ had Marry's egg been used, for it is the females DNA that is used in the formation of the child. Her egg cell contribute the DNA.

 

[Eliyahu]

Do you believe there are two Jesus's: one that is human and the other that is divine? It seems so, or that you can't differentiate between the two. Almost all the references that you give refer to the divinity of Christ to the exclusion of the humanity of Christ. Why is it that you do not deal with the humanity of Christ which is essentially what this thread is about.

It seems that you believe in 2 Jesus, not me.

Jesus Christ who created all the Earth and universe from nothing by Word, could create His own flesh by Word too, without need of the sin stricken flesh from the sinner woman.

The big misunderstanding is repeated by you again and again, that God can not create another, second Adam, another human being. The second Adam is still human being, the divine Jesus Christ with the full humanity. He still came thru David's family, which is even more honor to them than the biological motherhood.

 

[DHK]

Scripture does not say God prepared Him a fertilized egg, now does it? Nor does it say God prepared Him a body from a fertilized egg.

As pointed out over and over, sinful flesh would have been passed on to Christ had Marry's egg been used, for it is the females DNA that is used in the formation of the child. Her egg cell contribute the DNA.

Then you deny Isa.7:14 and Mat.1:20. You can't have it both ways.
What do you trust in? Science or the Bible.
Science fluctuates. It changes. Just today, for example, a study came out stating that just two cups of coffee has enough caffeine in it to cause a woman to have a miscarriage. But don't worry, that study will soon change and someone else will come out with some other results.

However, the Word of God never changes. Like Jesus, He is the same: yesterday, today and forever. So is the Word.
My foundation is on the Word, not science. I will stick to Isaiah 7:14 and Mat.1:20 and the rest of Scripture that I have studied on this subject.

 

[Eliyahu]

I am sure the belief of the egg fertilization is strongly connected with Babylonian goddess worship, Ishtar worship.

http://www.goddessgift.com/pandora's_box/easter-history.htm

http://www.blessedquietness.com/Web Pages Saved/whoreofbabylon.htm

No pagan believers claimed the Word became Flesh simply. Christianity is simple.

Word became Flesh. ( John 1:14)

The God who created Universe from Nothing only by Word, created His own body and launched Himself in the womb of Mary