Was Mary's Ovary Tube used?

[Marcia]

Eliyahu, you are trying to understand how Jesus could have been humanly born of Mary and you can't, so you are resorting to rejecting that. Being conceived by the HS means that it was by the power of the HS that Mary became pregnant.

If Mary was not Jesus'natural mother, then he was not fully human and these scriptures are not true:

But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman , born under the law, Gal 4.4

For this reason He ought by all means to become like his brothers , that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the things respecting God, in order to make propitiation for the sins of His people. Heb 1.17

Jesus had to be fully human to atone for men's sins; therefore, he had to have the human nature passed down through Mary.

Jesus referred to himself as the "Son of man" several times, showing not just the fulfillment of prophecy from the OT, but that he was human.

 

[Eliyahu]

Marcia, I do understand and can believe that He could be born of woman without need of woman's egg. Can't you ? Please look at tube babies who are born without the egg of the surrogate mother's. Likewise Jesus was born without anything from Mary but still came out of woman. that's why Galatian 4:4 says εςαπεστειλεν Θεοσ τον Υιον αθτου, γενομενον εκ γυναικοσ. Here we see γενομενον(come or become, or be made), not γεννηθεν (born) If Jesus was born by Mary, how could Paul say God sent His Son? Isn't it because His Son existed before and then God sent that Son thru woman? The people on this site are very weak in understanding the pre-existence of Yeshuah. Jesus said "they are they which testify me"John 5:39, the people on this site are very much contaminated with Roman Catholic!
In order to become like his brothers, Jesus came out of the surrogate mother, Mary. Could you understand this? Could you believe that God can raise up the children unto Abraham out of theses stones? Was John the Baptist wrong?
Could you believe that Jesus showed up to Abraham and Jesus said to the people clearly that He is the same guy which Abraham saw and was pleased to see ? then the Jews tried to kill Jesus. Please read John ch 8:56-59. Jesus could come to this world as if He showed up to Manoah (Judges ch 13) but came out of woman so that he become like his brothers and suffer the weakness of human body.
Someone above call me "stupid" but God knows who is stupid.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
The people on this site are very weak in understanding the pre-existence of Yeshuah.

I am afraid that you are the one who is very confused. I pray that the Holy Spirit will open your eyes to the truth and that you will leave this nonsense you are currently posting behind.

 

[Eliyahu]

Bob said:
"Jesus" did not exist before being born of a virgin."

The above statement is wrong
Jesus existed before being born of a virgin.
Ye are from beneath, I am from above"John 8:23
then He said "Before Abraham was I am" It is remarkable that He didn't say "Before Abraham was, I had been", because of Omni-Presence of deity. Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it, and was glad" Then the Jews were upset.
Even though Jesus was not older than 50 years of age, He was older than Mary, because He created Mary. ( Colossian 1:16-17)

[ November 26, 2005, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: Eliyahu ]

 

[Eliyahu]

"KenH"said
I am afraid that you are the one who is very confused. I pray that the Holy Spirit will open your eyes to the truth and that you will leave this nonsense you are currently posting behind.

I am surprised to know that Baptists are so weak in understanding the Pre-existence of Jesus. Now I can understand why Messianic Jews criticize eve Baptists are contaminated with Roman Catholic pagan worship.
Do you believe that Jesus is the Creator?

 

[KenH]

Jesus Christ is God, so, yes, He is the Creator.

And the Creator took on flesh:

John 1:14 (ESV)
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

[HankD]

Dear Eliyahu,

You have apparently formed a conviction about this and we won't be able to convince you otherwise. But I'll leave a parting thought.

Do a word study on "flesh" (sarx) particularly "and the Word became flesh".

Flesh is humanity which is subject to death.

Death was passed on from Adam to all men including Jesus (though He was sinless) through Mary.

KJV 2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

HankD

 

[Eliyahu]

Did Word take a flesh or become flesh?
1) In John 1:14 - became
2) In Heb 2:16-17 - took the seed. Did he take the sperm of Abraham's?
επιλαμβανομαι ¨: take hold of, assume the nature of, attach oneself to, seize

this doesn't tell us whether he took the egg of Mary. But Heb just says He took the nature of seed of Abraham. He became the seed of Abraham by taking the surrogate parent.

He has existed since before Abraham and Abraham saw Him. I believe He may be talking about Genesis 18 and/or Genesis 22. The Malack showed up both times, then came out of the woman.

I have plenty of verses where Pre-incarnate Jesus worked during OT times. If you try to preach the Gospel to Jews and rely on just NT, you will not be accepted. You should find out Jesus only in OT and they will not accept Trinity as Poly-God theory.
Before the Word took the egg of Mary, was He imperfect person? If He was a perfect person before He came into Mary, why did He have to take anything from her?

 

[KenH]

While you are at it, Eliyahu, why don't you tell us how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Good night all.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Bob said:
"Jesus" did not exist before being born of a virgin."

The above statement is wrong
Jesus existed before being born of a virgin.
Ye are from beneath, I am from above"John 8:23

then He said "Before Abraham was I am" It is remarkable that He didn't say "Before Abraham was, I had been", because of Omni-Presence of deity. Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it, and was glad" Then the Jews were upset.
Even though Jesus was not older than 50 years of age, He was older than Mary, because He created Mary. ( Colossian 1:16-17)

You are confusing the eternal nature of God the Son with the temporal "incident" in which HE becomes Jesus -- the God man.

God the Son was NOT the GOD-man in the OT - He was God the Son. It is the SAME PERSON but the name "JESUS" does more than identify the PERSON - God the Son it ALSO connotes His incarnation into humanity. Something that did not take place in before the birth of Jesus.

Hence - you never find God the Son being given the name Jesus in the OT.

My point was that you are mixing the fact of the incarnation with the PERSON of God the SON and incorrectly clinging to an INCARNATION artifact (the name JESUS) and inserting it into the OT.

God the Son was not the son of Mary in the OT, was not JESUS in the OT, was not a child raise by Joseph in the OT. God the Son thundered from Mt Sinai but did not build tables as a carpenter until HE became JESUS through the incarnation.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Questions:
1) Was Mary Immaculate and Sinless?
2) Was the blood of Mary passed to Jesus?
3) Was the blood of Jesus shed at the Cross sinless?
4) If the blood of Jesus was inherited from Mary, how was it done?
5) If the blood of Jesus was not inherited from Mary, is it possible while Jesus was conceived with Mary's egg?

Thses issues are related to interpreting Mt 1:20 and defining ""Theotokos"which is one of the main theology of RC and Greek Orthodox,and Anglican Church as they all call Mary "the Mother of God" which is NEVER mentioned in the Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
[QB] Questions:
1) Was Mary Immaculate and Sinless?

No - "ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God"

2) Was the blood of Mary passed to Jesus?

The "Blood" of the mother is not passed to the infant - but the DNA of the mother is shared with the body of the infant.

3) Was the blood of Jesus shed at the Cross sinless?

Blood has no morals. Jesus the PERSON was sinless and had a sinless nature.

Your real question should be about the sinful nature. Jesus did not have a sinful nature - Mary did.

The issue with egg - has to do with genetics and DNA - not blood. The child can have a different blood type than the mother.

You are correct to note that NO Bible author calls Mary "the Mother of God". She is not. JEsus was INCARNATED not PROCREATED.

But when we speak of someone's mother we refer to the one that gave them birth, that shares DNA with them, that nursed them raised them taught them cradled them etc.

Mary did all that for JESUS - but not for GOD the SON in the OT. It is the same PERSON - but JESUS is the incarnate form of God the Son who pre-existed Mary.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen Bro. BobRyan -- Preach it!

 

[Eliyahu]

This part becomes quite complicated. It is remarkable that mark, Luke, Mt all described Maria as mother of Yakobo and Yose:
Mt 27:56, Mk 15:47, 16:1, Lk 24:10 (simply Maria)
Catholic denies she is the very Mary, the mother of Jesus. Otherwise they should deny that Mary was the perpetual Virgin. How could the Mother of God marry another human being? or How could Wife of God marry another man? Both Joseph and Mary lived celibacy because teh virgin birth was too much shocking. This is what Catholic says.

In general I do not see any problem with the belief that Jesus was born of Holy Spirit, that Jesus was enfleshed by Holy Spirit and then stayed in Mary and came out of Mary.

Sometimes she forgot His father is God, but He reminded it in Lk 2:47-49

What I learned from Messianic Jews was that Jesus worked during OT times and it is shown so many times in OT. Yesuah is mentioned 78 times in OT and Malack was shown so many times as 50, and Ha-Goel (redeemer) is so.

 

[Ransom]

Eliyahu asked:

Instead of discussion, we have to stick to the bible expression in Mt 1:20 which says" the one in her is born by Holy spirit' which I would paraphrase " the one is born by Holy Spirit and stays in her"[/b]

The Bible says that Jesus was "of" or "from" the Holy Spirit. It doesn't say "born by."

why didn't God allow Joseph and Mary give birth to a baby and fill him with Holy Spirit fully?

Could He not take human flesh without Mary?

We're not concerned with what-ifs and could-he-not-haves, but with what-saith-the-Scriptures.

 

[Eliyahu]

If Jesus had the genom of Mary, DNA of Mary, the sinful nature of her could be inherited to Jesus.
Why the nature of Joseph was not allowed while the nature of Mary is Ok to be passed unto Jesus?
If Mary was a surrogate mother and Joseph the surrogate father, can Jesus not be a descendant of Abraham and David?

 

[BobRyan]

God said to Abraham "IN YOU" shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.

God said to the "Woman" that "HER SEED would bruise the serpants head".

It has to be a literal genetic descendant that is "conceived" but in a manner that is incarnation - not procreation.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Amen Bro. BobRyan -- Preach it!

Thanks Ed - good to be on the same side of the fence now and then.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ransom]

Eliyahu said:

Marcia, I do understand and can believe that He could be born of woman without need of woman's egg. Can't you ? Please look at tube babies who are born without the egg of the surrogate mother's.

It is clear that you are ignorant of what is really involved with in vitro fertilization, otherwise you would understand why this analogy doesn't help you.

It is possible for a baby to fertilized in a petri dish by combining a man's sperm and a woman's ovum, then implanted into another woman's womb.

But the fact remains that you still need an ovum. Every test tube baby has a biological mother who provides half his genes.

That is not the same as saying, as you are, that it is possible for an IVF baby to be born without the use of any ovum at all.

Furthermore, IVF was impossible in the first century.

 

[Eliyahu]

Ransom,please read Greek text ek means either from, out of, by, through. Often ek was used as by and therefore it is not the problem. Even Old English "öf" often meant "'by"