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Was Mary's Ovary Tube used?
- Thread starter Eliyahu
- Start date
Eliyahu said:
Ransom,please read Greek text ek means either from, out of, by, through.
But not "born." Scripture says who Jesus was "born of" - "born of woman" (Gal. 4:4), genomenon ek gunaikos.
Matt. 1:20, by contrast, does not say that Jesus was genomenon ek Pneumatos estin Hagiou.
Ransom,please read Greek text ek means either from, out of, by, through.
But not "born." Scripture says who Jesus was "born of" - "born of woman" (Gal. 4:4), genomenon ek gunaikos.
Matt. 1:20, by contrast, does not say that Jesus was genomenon ek Pneumatos estin Hagiou.
Test tube need not only mother but also father. Why did God not bring a sperm while Joseph was sleeping? Why God need 50% of the parent?
Again you say 50% is OK.
100 % is not OK.
0% is impossible.
Nothing is impossible to God.
Surrogate parents are parents.
Jesus was the Creator of both surrogate father and mother. The complete and perfect embryo stayed in Mary.
Again you say 50% is OK.
100 % is not OK.
0% is impossible.
Nothing is impossible to God.
Surrogate parents are parents.
Jesus was the Creator of both surrogate father and mother. The complete and perfect embryo stayed in Mary.
Jesus'Physical descent from Mary was quite possible! But He didn't take that course, because He becomes a sinner, if so.
Bible is so accurate to say
γεννηθεν εκ Πνευματοσ εστιν Αγιου, (not γινομαι)
Again,
1) Taking 100% of flesh from Adam's race, (from Joseph and Mary) is not OK
2) Taking 50% of flesh from Adam's race, from Mary is OK
3) Taking nothing from Adam's race and form a body for Jesus (0%) is impossible, is this you believe?
Who is stupid will be revealed in the presence God!! ( I say this word, because some of you commented on me so!)
Bible is so accurate to say
γεννηθεν εκ Πνευματοσ εστιν Αγιου, (not γινομαι)
Again,
1) Taking 100% of flesh from Adam's race, (from Joseph and Mary) is not OK
2) Taking 50% of flesh from Adam's race, from Mary is OK
3) Taking nothing from Adam's race and form a body for Jesus (0%) is impossible, is this you believe?
Who is stupid will be revealed in the presence God!! ( I say this word, because some of you commented on me so!)
Eliyahu said:
Jesus'Physical descent from Mary was quite possible! But He didn't take that course, because He becomes a sinner, if so.
Apparently not, since Jesus is physically descended from Mary, and is sinless.
Once again, Scripture trumps what "would have been" by someone's personal theological scheme.
Who is stupid will be revealed in the presence God!!
We can generally take a pretty good guess now, though.
Jesus'Physical descent from Mary was quite possible! But He didn't take that course, because He becomes a sinner, if so.
Apparently not, since Jesus is physically descended from Mary, and is sinless.
Once again, Scripture trumps what "would have been" by someone's personal theological scheme.
Who is stupid will be revealed in the presence God!!
We can generally take a pretty good guess now, though.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Good soudn byte - bad attention to "detail" where I point out that the PERSON of God the Son is the same as with Jesus -- but JESUS is the EARTH name given to God the Son ONLY at His incarnation. This shows that Mary is NOT the Mother "of the Son of God" because the PERSON pre-existed her. Rather she is the mother of the human incarnate "Jesus" form that the Son of God chose to take on "Emptying HIMSELF he become found in the form of mankind" Phil 2.
You seek to BLURR the distinction between the INCARNATE Jesus and the pre-existing SON OF GOD just as does the RCC. They do it to get Mary to be the MOTHER of the SON of GOD. You do it to get the incarnate human JESUS back in the OT and separated from Mary's DNA.
You have yet to show one text in the OT calling him by that name?
So you settle for sound byte tactics instead of scripture??
In Christ,
Bob
Bob said:
You seek to BLURR the distinction between the INCARNATE Jesus and the pre-existing SON OF GOD just as does the RCC.
I don't seek it. It is a false accusation by the people who says " Jesus didnt exist before the virgin birth and Mary is Mother of God"
I was really surprised to hear no condemnation from among the people on this issue toward such Roman Catholic statements.
Indeed, the name of Jesus was not mentioned in OT. It doesn't mean that He didn't exist. He himself said to the Jews that I am He whose days Abraham was eager to see (John 8:56)
I hope you know that His Hebrew name was "Yeshuah" and at least Matthew was written in Hebrew as many witnessed.
Today we read the bible at the church regarding Hannah. She rejoiced in thy salvation (Yeshuah)" (1Sam 2:1)
Isaiah 52:10 All the ends of the ear shall see the SALVATION (YESHUAH) of our God.
59:16 And He saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore His Arm brought Salvation (Yeshuah)unto him;and His righteousness, it sustained him.
Manoah asked the Angel " what is thy name ? " Judges 13:17
Why askest thou thus after my name seeing it is Wonderful (Peleh)?
The Messiah was mentioned many times in OT
His name shall be called Wonderful, Immanu-El, Everlasting Father.
Jesus said Abraham saw His days (Jn 8:56-59)
Moses esteemed the reproach of Christ greater riches (Heb 11:26)
Isaiah called Him as the Arm of Jehova (53:1)
Jacob said " The Angel who redeemed me from all evil" Genesis 48:16. Does Angel shed blood for redeeming? Which Angel can say " I am God of Beth-El"?
Important point is that Jesus himelf identifies that He was the one prophesied by Prophets and illustrated many scriptures to the disciples.
"the first man Adam was made a living soul, the last Adam was made a quickening spirit, the first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven" 1 Cor 15:45-47
Scriptures separate between first Adam and the second Adam clearly.
[ November 27, 2005, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: Eliyahu ]
You seek to BLURR the distinction between the INCARNATE Jesus and the pre-existing SON OF GOD just as does the RCC.
I don't seek it. It is a false accusation by the people who says " Jesus didnt exist before the virgin birth and Mary is Mother of God"
I was really surprised to hear no condemnation from among the people on this issue toward such Roman Catholic statements.
Indeed, the name of Jesus was not mentioned in OT. It doesn't mean that He didn't exist. He himself said to the Jews that I am He whose days Abraham was eager to see (John 8:56)
I hope you know that His Hebrew name was "Yeshuah" and at least Matthew was written in Hebrew as many witnessed.
Today we read the bible at the church regarding Hannah. She rejoiced in thy salvation (Yeshuah)" (1Sam 2:1)
Isaiah 52:10 All the ends of the ear shall see the SALVATION (YESHUAH) of our God.
59:16 And He saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore His Arm brought Salvation (Yeshuah)unto him;and His righteousness, it sustained him.
Manoah asked the Angel " what is thy name ? " Judges 13:17
Why askest thou thus after my name seeing it is Wonderful (Peleh)?
The Messiah was mentioned many times in OT
His name shall be called Wonderful, Immanu-El, Everlasting Father.
Jesus said Abraham saw His days (Jn 8:56-59)
Moses esteemed the reproach of Christ greater riches (Heb 11:26)
Isaiah called Him as the Arm of Jehova (53:1)
Jacob said " The Angel who redeemed me from all evil" Genesis 48:16. Does Angel shed blood for redeeming? Which Angel can say " I am God of Beth-El"?
Important point is that Jesus himelf identifies that He was the one prophesied by Prophets and illustrated many scriptures to the disciples.
"the first man Adam was made a living soul, the last Adam was made a quickening spirit, the first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven" 1 Cor 15:45-47
Scriptures separate between first Adam and the second Adam clearly.
[ November 27, 2005, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: Eliyahu ]
Marcia
Active Member
1. Jesus did not inherit a sinful nature from Mary because sin is not passed down in material substance. We have a fallen nature just by being human. It's a spiritual condition. By tying it into the body, you are being very gnostic. I agree with what Ransom said on this.
2. Joseph was only the legal father because Jesus has God as His "real" Father.
3. There is no biblical support for Mary being a "surrogate" mother. She was Jesus' mother, period.
BTW, I notice you keep mentioning the pre-incarnate Jesus as though some of us disagree with that. We don't. Yes, Jesus has always existed, but he he not always been incarnated.
Did Mary give birth to God the Son?
If anyone is busy with others or boring with this, he or she can leave this issue. No one is forcing here.
this question arose:
1) when we interpret Mt 1:20
the one in her is born out of (or by) Holy Spirit
2) If Mary's is biological mother, what Catholic claims may be correct as they say the blood shed at the Cross was inherited from Mary. As we believe the blood of Jesus was sinless, Catholic says that it means Mary's blood was also sinless.
3) Can the Word be enfleshed into a Sperm only so that the Sperm may be fertilized? or the Word was enfleshed into a complete human embryo? This also affect the importance of the role of Mary.
There is no mentioning in the bible that Mary was just a surrogate mother, but there is no mentioning that Mary was not the surrogate mother, either.
This is just a question and the bible verses are rather more likely interpretted as nothing was taken from Mary's genom. the verb gennao is used when someone is born out of a woman, but in this case, before Jesus was born out of Mary, the verb is used and it says he was born by Holy Spirit.
If anyone is busy with others or boring with this, he or she can leave this issue. No one is forcing here.
this question arose:
1) when we interpret Mt 1:20
the one in her is born out of (or by) Holy Spirit
2) If Mary's is biological mother, what Catholic claims may be correct as they say the blood shed at the Cross was inherited from Mary. As we believe the blood of Jesus was sinless, Catholic says that it means Mary's blood was also sinless.
3) Can the Word be enfleshed into a Sperm only so that the Sperm may be fertilized? or the Word was enfleshed into a complete human embryo? This also affect the importance of the role of Mary.
There is no mentioning in the bible that Mary was just a surrogate mother, but there is no mentioning that Mary was not the surrogate mother, either.
This is just a question and the bible verses are rather more likely interpretted as nothing was taken from Mary's genom. the verb gennao is used when someone is born out of a woman, but in this case, before Jesus was born out of Mary, the verb is used and it says he was born by Holy Spirit.
This might be the last posting from me on this issue:
The important point is that the bible says:
Το γαρ εν αυτη γεννηθεν εκ Πνευματοσ εστιν Αγιου
which means "For the one in her born out of Holy Spirit is" or "For the one in her is born out if Holy Spirit"
Isn't this amazing ? Because the word γεννηθεν was never used for "conceive"but usually beget, begotten as used in Äbraham begot Issac, ....
This is informed to Joseph before Jesus was born out of Mary and say that He was born out of Holy Spirit already!
For "conceive", sullambanow was used even for Mary and for Elisabeth (συλλαμβανω, the original meaning of which is "carry in the belly.
the importance is that Jesus was born already before He came out of the woman (Gal 4:4)
Enfleshing in the form of embryo instead of sperm is quite possible. When a sperm is come out, it is not called birth".
The important point is that the bible says:
Το γαρ εν αυτη γεννηθεν εκ Πνευματοσ εστιν Αγιου
which means "For the one in her born out of Holy Spirit is" or "For the one in her is born out if Holy Spirit"
Isn't this amazing ? Because the word γεννηθεν was never used for "conceive"but usually beget, begotten as used in Äbraham begot Issac, ....
This is informed to Joseph before Jesus was born out of Mary and say that He was born out of Holy Spirit already!
For "conceive", sullambanow was used even for Mary and for Elisabeth (συλλαμβανω, the original meaning of which is "carry in the belly.
the importance is that Jesus was born already before He came out of the woman (Gal 4:4)
Enfleshing in the form of embryo instead of sperm is quite possible. When a sperm is come out, it is not called birth".
ccrobinson
Active Member
Exactly what I was thinking.
I don't know how you get this statement from Gal 4:4. Regardless, this entire thread feels like splitting a hair 10 different ways to answer a question that nobody asked. Isn't it enough to say that Jesus was born of a woman like the rest of us, but was conceived miraculously?
T
TexasSky
Guest
The angel told Joseph that the child was conceived.... that indicates a joining of DNA. Besides, without Mary's DNA and egg - Christ would NOT be a descendant of David.
Only the bible is the answer: I already said
Jesus was born already before He came out of Mary according to Mt. 1:20
The one in her is born out of Holy Spirit:
There is no word for conceive in that sentence.
In other words, KJV translated gennao into conceive because there was no understanding about the firtilization.
If we want to stick to "descendant of David", then Jesus should have been born between Joseph and Mary.
Ovum is designed for fertilization with Sperm. If an Ovum was used, it means that Word became a sperm, then it was fertilized with Ovum.
But the Bible says he was born out of Holy Spirit already in verse 20 before He came out of Mary in verse 25.
The word gennao was not used for conceive, but for give birth to as we notice wheh Abraham begot Issac, Issac begot Jacob,...
1Cor 15:45-47 identify between Adam's race and Jesus.
The Word became simply a flesh, scientifically the flesh already contain 46 chromasom 23 from ovum and 23 from sperm. God can create another flesh if He wants, as He did for Adam from the dust.
We were influenced by RCC very much in this matter. If the ovum of Mary was used, she may deserve a certain respect as RCC claims,which I don't agree.
Jesus was born already before He came out of Mary according to Mt. 1:20
The one in her is born out of Holy Spirit:
There is no word for conceive in that sentence.
In other words, KJV translated gennao into conceive because there was no understanding about the firtilization.
If we want to stick to "descendant of David", then Jesus should have been born between Joseph and Mary.
Ovum is designed for fertilization with Sperm. If an Ovum was used, it means that Word became a sperm, then it was fertilized with Ovum.
But the Bible says he was born out of Holy Spirit already in verse 20 before He came out of Mary in verse 25.
The word gennao was not used for conceive, but for give birth to as we notice wheh Abraham begot Issac, Issac begot Jacob,...
1Cor 15:45-47 identify between Adam's race and Jesus.
The Word became simply a flesh, scientifically the flesh already contain 46 chromasom 23 from ovum and 23 from sperm. God can create another flesh if He wants, as He did for Adam from the dust.
We were influenced by RCC very much in this matter. If the ovum of Mary was used, she may deserve a certain respect as RCC claims,which I don't agree.