Was The Reformation Sent By God?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Either the Reformers “reformed” back to what Christianity had been from the beginning…in which case we should see some early Christian writings that support their doctrines…or they changed what Christianity had always been…in which case we should be able to see some proof of their authority to do this. Right?

Right

 

[1689Dave]

The reformers were not the ones to push the voilence, as it was the Church of Rome ,m who despised the Gospel truth that the reformers were trying to get across to them!

History does not show this.

 

[Yeshua1]

The church of Matthew 16 is the church of Jerusalem that came into being at the preaching of Peter during which time the Holy Ghost manifested Himself through signs and wonders and established the Church of Jerusalem.

The church spread via the apostles bringing the gospel to the world.

The church at Rome at one time was an apostolic church but over the centuries corrupted itself even to the mass murder of believers.

In my opinion the dogma of the "pope" being the Vicar of Christ on the earth is error.
Yes he is the leader of the largest sector of Christianity on earth but he (IMO again) is not the apostolic successor of the apostle Peter .

The reformation was sent By God to reform the largest so called christian Church, but they rejected God, and nailed the coffin lid shut when they agreed to maintain false Gospel...The Vatican II amd all other meetings did not chnage their fundemtal errors at all...

 

[Yeshua1]

Was the written gospel crucified on a cross?... I believe everyone on here will think is a ludacris, ridiculous, statement... But the living Gospel sure was and is the foundation the written one is based on... I have two Deaf children and one of the saying among the Deaf when they think no one understand what they are saying is... Talk To The Hand!... So Brother what I'm also saying is... Brother Glen

Would the Apostle paul accept as the real Gospel one that mixed faith and good works for salvation?

 

[Yeshua1]

Hank, by no means am I going to try to excuse past wrongs done in the name of Christ.. You need to remember that heresy was considered a particularly grave sin. Not only was the heretics soul in jeopardy but also his false teaching jeopardized the souls of many others. The Church, as the guardian of souls. had to root out heresy. I don't excuse the torture, hanging, burning, etc of anyone whether they were Catholic or Protestant. Atrocities were committed by both. Kings and Queens also, saw themselves as guardians of the faith (Henry the VIII & 'Bloody Mary' for example) and dealt with heretics in horrible ways. As you know, if an accused heretic refused to recant/repent then he would be turned over to the state. According to civil law, too often the death penalty was imposed. The Church itself could not impose the death penalty and in many cases pleaded for the lives of the accused. Remember, capitol punishment was a common civil punishment even for simple theft or counterfeiting.

The 2 main "heresies" that Rome tortured and prosecuted people on were when they tried to get the Bible in own language, and belived in faith alone grace alone!

 

[Yeshua1]

Right

The Church of rome denies the Gospel of the Bible, and do is in heresy!

 

[Yeshua1]

History does not show this.

History shows that Rome murdered many who wanted to get the Bibke into own language, and who held to saved by grace alone faith alone, who denied the papacy...

 

[1689Dave]

History shows that Rome murdered many who wanted to get the Bibke into own language, and who held to saved by grace alone faith alone, who denied the papacy...

The Reformed and Lutherans murdered thousands of Anabaptists too.

 

[Yeshua1]

The fact is, we DON'T see any early writings supporting ANY of the "reformed" beliefs. Neither so we see any source of authority from which the Reformers could draw from to make the changes they made...which were indeed changes...because we see the earliest Christians believing the exact same things (Doctrinally) as Catholics did in the 16th century (and to preseant). And if your position is that the evil Catholics destroyed all the Baptistic (scriptural according to you) writings, then why did all the other heretical writings of the time survive?

The reformers drew their plan of salvation directly from Romans and Galatians themselves, and last I checked, both were still scriptures!

 

[Yeshua1]

The Reformed and Lutherans murdered thousands of Anabaptists too.

Yes, as there has been great sin done by many groups under the name of Christianity, but still does not change the truth that Rome teaches a defective false Gospel!

 

[HankD]

Hank, by no means am I going to try to excuse past wrongs done in the name of Christ.. You need to remember that heresy was considered a particularly grave sin. Not only was the heretics soul in jeopardy but also his false teaching jeopardized the souls of many others. The Church, as the guardian of souls. had to root out heresy. I don't excuse the torture, hanging, burning, etc of anyone whether they were Catholic or Protestant. Atrocities were committed by both. Kings and Queens also, saw themselves as guardians of the faith (Henry the VIII & 'Bloody Mary' for example) and dealt with heretics in horrible ways. As you know, if an accused heretic refused to recant/repent then he would be turned over to the state. According to civil law, too often the death penalty was imposed. The Church itself could not impose the death penalty and in many cases pleaded for the lives of the accused. Remember, capitol punishment was a common civil punishment even for simple theft or counterfeiting.

No one can hold a candle to the social sins of the Church of Rome.

Just as the Pharisees turned Jesus over to Pilate because they were not allowed to administer capital punishment so also the church (e.g. Huguenots, Waldensians, etc...).

This is one reason for which as a former Catholic I separated from the RCC.

 

[tyndale1946]

No one can hold a candle to the social sins of the Church of Rome.

Just as the Pharisees turned Jesus over to Pilate because they were not allowed to administer capital punishment so also the church (e.g. Huguenots, Waldensians, etc...).

This is one reason for which as a former Catholic I separated from the RCC.

That is one reason I am stepping away from this discussion... I know from studying church history there have been atrocities and bloodshed on both sides... I was raised an Old Line Baptist from my childhood and have never left it... I never came out of anything or had to leave anything behind as some on here have... Brethren of the R.C.C know their history better than I do and I respect those on here who are or have been... I have never walked in their shoes, in fact I never walked in a lot your brethren shoes... I only know where I come from, what I've been through and what I've been... I stand by what I posted... This fight is not mine Christian!... Are Christian suppose to fight?... Brother Glen

 

[HankD]

That is one reason I am stepping away from this discussion... I know from studying church history there have been atrocities and bloodshed on both sides... I was raised an Old Line Baptist from my childhood and have never left it... I never came out of anything or had to leave anything behind as some on here have... Brethren of the R.C.C know their history better than I do and I respect those on here who are or have been... I have never walked in their shoes, in fact I never walked in a lot your brethren shoes... I only know where I come from, what I've been through and what I've been... I stand by what I posted... This fight is not mine Christian!... Are Christian suppose to fight?... Brother Glen

Personally I don't fight anymore but recognize evil and attempt to correct those who commit and/or follow the evil one's destructive path.

1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Let us say that I have a lover's quarrel with the Roman Catholic Church being a cradle Catholic.

I admit to the the nostalgia welling up in my heart when I enter a Catholic Church.
But that does not excuse their unparalleled blood drenched history no matter how much counterfeit justification she is given in her defense.

Some popes (e.g. Francis) have tried to show repentance but IMO come short.
I believe Francis wants to do more but fears the backlash of cardinals and bishops.

 

[Walter]

Would the Apostle paul accept as the real Gospel one that mixed faith and good works for salvation?

You have been posting since the time Thinkingstuff (who posted often on this board while a Baptist) converted to The Catholic Faith. He made some of the following (similar) observations before converting:

Of the three theological virtues of faith, hope and love, faith comes first and is our entry into the divine life via those virtues. Paul says, in Romans 3:28 that we are "justified by faith", but later on in the same letter, he teaches that we are "saved by hope" Romans 8:24. But, even hope is not final, as it will pass away when that which is hoped for arrives. In 1 Corinthians 13:13 he teaches that love is greater than either faith or hope - for in heaven there will be only love - faith and hope having passed away as the imperfect becomes the perfect (1 Corinthians 13:10,12). God is not faith; He is not hope - He is love. How shall we be like Him (Matthew 5:48) if our faith does not mature to love?

Thus, faith is your first step as a partaker of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4), but it remains immature, meaning that you are fed on milk and not solid food (1 Corinthians 3:2, Hebrews 5:12). Milk will not sustain you for your entire life - you need solid food. Faith is intended to generate hope, which is a maturing factor of faith. Yet, if both of these virtues do not lead to love - a reflection of the purity of God's love - your faith is like a clanging cymbal (1 Corinthians 13:1). Faith is merely the first step on our journey to eternity.

Read Matthew 25:14-30 - the parable of the talents. All three servants had faith in their master. Yet, only two served him out of love and provided him with an increase, according to their abilities. The third did not move beyond faith to either hope or love, and was cast out of the master's house. At the reckoning, he provided only his faith, which was insufficient. The master expects an increase, and that requires not only the possession of, but also the working of love on our part.

 

[Revmitchell]

You have been posting since the time Thinkingstuff (who posted often on this board while a Baptist) converted to The Catholic Faith. He made some of the following (similar) observations before converting:

Of the three theological virtues of faith, hope and love, faith comes first and is our entry into the divine life via those virtues. Paul says, in Romans 3:28 that we are "justified by faith", but later on in the same letter, he teaches that we are "saved by hope" Romans 8:24. But, even hope is not final, as it will pass away when that which is hoped for arrives. In 1 Corinthians 13:13 he teaches that love is greater than either faith or hope - for in heaven there will be only love - faith and hope having passed away as the imperfect becomes the perfect (1 Corinthians 13:10,12). God is not faith; He is not hope - He is love. How shall we be like Him (Matthew 5:48) if our faith does not mature to love?

Thus, faith is your first step as a partaker of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4), but it remains immature, meaning that you are fed on milk and not solid food (1 Corinthians 3:2, Hebrews 5:12). Milk will not sustain you for your entire life - you need solid food. Faith is intended to generate hope, which is a maturing factor of faith. Yet, if both of these virtues do not lead to love - a reflection of the purity of God's love - your faith is like a clanging cymbal (1 Corinthians 13:1). Faith is merely the first step on our journey to eternity.

Read Matthew 25:14-30 - the parable of the talents. All three servants had faith in their master. Yet, only two served him out of love and provided him with an increase, according to their abilities. The third did not move beyond faith to either hope or love, and was cast out of the master's house. At the reckoning, he provided only his faith, which was insufficient. The master expects an increase, and that requires not only the possession of, but also the working of love on our part.

Do these guys just make this stuff up as they go?

 

[Yeshua1]

You have been posting since the time Thinkingstuff (who posted often on this board while a Baptist) converted to The Catholic Faith. He made some of the following (similar) observations before converting:

Of the three theological virtues of faith, hope and love, faith comes first and is our entry into the divine life via those virtues. Paul says, in Romans 3:28 that we are "justified by faith", but later on in the same letter, he teaches that we are "saved by hope" Romans 8:24. But, even hope is not final, as it will pass away when that which is hoped for arrives. In 1 Corinthians 13:13 he teaches that love is greater than either faith or hope - for in heaven there will be only love - faith and hope having passed away as the imperfect becomes the perfect (1 Corinthians 13:10,12). God is not faith; He is not hope - He is love. How shall we be like Him (Matthew 5:48) if our faith does not mature to love?

Thus, faith is your first step as a partaker of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4), but it remains immature, meaning that you are fed on milk and not solid food (1 Corinthians 3:2, Hebrews 5:12). Milk will not sustain you for your entire life - you need solid food. Faith is intended to generate hope, which is a maturing factor of faith. Yet, if both of these virtues do not lead to love - a reflection of the purity of God's love - your faith is like a clanging cymbal (1 Corinthians 13:1). Faith is merely the first step on our journey to eternity.

Read Matthew 25:14-30 - the parable of the talents. All three servants had faith in their master. Yet, only two served him out of love and provided him with an increase, according to their abilities. The third did not move beyond faith to either hope or love, and was cast out of the master's house. At the reckoning, he provided only his faith, which was insufficient. The master expects an increase, and that requires not only the possession of, but also the working of love on our part.

Apostle paul describes the theology of Rome here
Galatians 1:8!

 

[Yeshua1]

Do these guys just make this stuff up as they go?

Those who support Rome are masters of double speak!

 

[Walter]

Do these guys just make this stuff up as they go?

Do these guys just make this stuff up as they go?

Been Catholic teaching (and scripture) for two thousand years.

 

[Yeshua1]

Been Catholic teaching (and scripture) for two thousand years.

The Catholic Church was NOT there in Acts. as that was the First baptist Church of jerusalem!

 

[tyndale1946]

The Catholic Church was NOT there in Acts. as that was the First baptist Church of jerusalem!

Well I said I was done with this discussion but there needs to be a correction here according to scripture... They were called neither... Brother Glen

Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.