Was There Alcohol in the Wine...

[webdog]

Tell that to Isaiah. For some reason he thinks there is wine in a grape.:thumbs:

He probably saw the bees and animals that got hammered from eating the fermented grapes!

 

[webdog]

Made sense to me. Proverbs 3:10 and Isaiah 65:8 are speaking of nonfermented wine.

*sigh* there was no such thing in biblical times as non fermented wine. The technology didn't exist until the 1800's (and boiling it down and mixing it with water was not conisdered "wine")

 

[npetreley]

Tell that to Isaiah. For some reason he thinks there is wine in a grape.:thumbs:

We've already been through this. You know he could easily have been talking about real wine, since that's where wine comes from -- clusters of grapes and pressed grapes. It's perfectly appropriate to say there's real wine in the cluster, but assume you allow it to ferment before drinking it.

One might just as easily say there's T-bone steak in a cow. It's perfectly true to say there's T-bone steak in a cow, but you'd still cook it before you eat it. You wouldn't eat it raw just because you said it was in the cow, just as you may not drink grape juice unfermented just because it's unfermented in the cluster (assuming it hasn't fermented on the vine, which is entirely possible).

You simply choose to believe it MUST mean grape juice because that fits your a-priori position that alcohol is evil. That's fine. Believe whatever you want, but don't pretend you've proved anything.

 

[James_Newman]

No, thats not perfectly reasonable. Who talks that way? Theres a lovely medium rare steak inside that cow over there. Your position is the one that says Isaiah must be interpretted in light of the opinion of some historian or the wine steward at Steak and Ale. Why not compare spiritual things with spiritual and allow the word of God to define its own terms?

 

[Allan]

I'm not really going to way in here, but I have always found something very interesting.

Priests, while performing their priestly duties were forbidden by death from God if the drank anything alcoholic before or during the administering of their duties.

The Nazarite vow could be taken, and signified that the person was under a strengent commit (for a couple of differnt possible purposes) and most ardently commanded thing to astain from wine. They couldn't even TOUCH a grape or raisin. Talk about legalistic :laugh: - That just makes me laugh every time I read. Maybe it is just me.

Kings and princes were not to partake in wine OR strong drink according to provers.

Why should these people who were in the service of Lord or minister before the Lord forbiddin to drink. The priests should have been able to (in small quantity of course) to share with the people the blessing of God. OR AT LEAST when they ministered for themselves during their duty or service to enjoy the bountiful blessing of the Lord and not be threatened by God with, or sin for partaking so. It is His blessing given for them to enjoy.

So the question is - Why could the priest not partake (in moderation) during their duties or ministering upon threat of death?
or the Nazarite - why is cut off from the blessing of God (wine or anything that it comes from) upon threat of it being a sin?

or the Kings and princes - Why are they not to enjoy the libations of God in moderation?

Why is it that those who were in the service of or commited to God where forbidden from partaking WHILE they were so??

They are just interesting points I have pondered...

FWI- I do not believe alcohal is sinful nor that it is something we are commanded to completely abstain from in ANY form (medicinal, cultural needs in foreign countries for a time, ext...) But I do believe that believers have NO need of it here in America as relaxing drink or even a recreational enjoyment, or worse a joy booster.
I do not drink for the reason of my weaker brothers and sisters in Christ. And I agree with Paul who says that as long as the world exists I will not touch it for their sakes. (paraphrase)

 

[npetreley]

No, thats not perfectly reasonable. Who talks that way? Theres a lovely medium rare steak inside that cow over there.

You must be joking! People talk that way all the time, though not the way you put it. In fact, many cuts of beef are named after where they are located in the cow.

Look, the bottom line is that you're determined to believe it's grape juice no matter how much evidence people present you that it's wine. That's fine. Believe what you want. But if you present it as a slam dunk, you're only making a fool out of yourself.

 

[webdog]

Why not compare spiritual things with spiritual and allow the word of God to define its own terms?

Sounds good...
Num 6:3 “he shall separate himself from wine and strong drink. He shall drink no vinegar made from wine or strong drink and shall not drink any juice of grapes or eat grapes, fresh or dried.

Definately a difference between wine and juice of grapes.

 

[Allan]

*sigh* there was no such thing in biblical times as non fermented wine. The technology didn't exist until the 1800's (and boiling it down and mixing it with water was not conisdered "wine")

Actaully Web that is not close to true. It is archeolically proven such knowledge did in fact exist.

Just addressing THAT issue. The rest is yours brother.

 

[GLipscomb48]

*sigh* there was no such thing in biblical times as non fermented wine. The technology didn't exist until the 1800's (and boiling it down and mixing it with water was not conisdered "wine")

And you know this because?

 

[webdog]

Actaully Web that is not close to true. It is archeolically proven such knowledge did in fact exist.

Just addressing THAT issue. The rest is yours brother.

Allan, can you provide a source for that?

 

[James_Newman]

Sounds good...
Num 6:3 “he shall separate himself from wine and strong drink. He shall drink no vinegar made from wine or strong drink and shall not drink any juice of grapes or eat grapes, fresh or dried.

Definately a difference between wine and juice of grapes.

Numbers 6:3
3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

Are you going to try to tell me that liquor is grape juice? Now who's crazy? Everyone knows that liquor is alcoholic.

 

[webdog]

I quoted the ESV, which happens to be slightly more current than the KJV. I believe the ESV (and the majority of translations) got it right.

 

[npetreley]

Here - these were incredibly easy to find via google:

Quoted from Restaurant Business Magazine Online:

Cut from the beef chuck shoulder clod, this well-marbled, boneless steak is the second most tender beef muscle in the cow.

From a recipe book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=r2...RY2&sig=dHMMBL1HFe58o6gXxC1xiNGUMDc#PPA163,M1

Skirt steak is a thin muscle that acts as a diaphragm inside the cow...

There you go. Steak is something inside a cow. But you'd never eat the steak right out of the cow. You'd cook it first.

 

[James_Newman]

There you go, steak is part of a cow, just like wine is part of a grape.

 

[GLipscomb48]

Alcohol is part of a grape, but you have to make it ferment first. The making of alcohol is a process in which man intervenes just as he does in making steak from a cow's meat.

 

[webdog]

Alcohol is part of a grape, but you have to make it ferment first.

It will do it on it's own...you don't have to do a thing.

 

[npetreley]

There you go, steak is part of a cow, just like wine is part of a grape.

Exactly! Just as you'd cook steak before you eat it, you ferment wine before you drink it. It is just as accurate to say there's steak (you cook to eat) in the cow, and there's wine (you let ferment to drink) in the cluster.

 

[npetreley]

Alcohol is part of a grape, but you have to make it ferment first. The making of alcohol is a process in which man intervenes just as he does in making steak from a cow's meat.

Quite the opposite is true. Grapes ferment just fine on their own. They're covered in yeast and mold right on the vine. Man has to intervene to PREVENT grape juice from fermenting.

 

[James_Newman]

Exactly! Just as you'd cook steak before you eat it, you ferment wine before you drink it. It is just as accurate to say there's steak (you cook to eat) in the cow, and there's wine (you let ferment to drink) in the cluster.

Except I don't ferment my wine.

 

[npetreley]

Except I don't ferment my wine.

You don't have to. Squeeze some grapes and just let the grape juice sit for a few days.