Was there death already before Adam?

[xdisciplex]

Where does the bible say death did not exist before the fall? What if death already existed after Satan's fall?

 

[DHK]

Where does the bible say death did not exist before the fall? What if death already existed after Satan's fall?

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Sin entered into the world through Adam, and through sin death entered the world. Thus there was no sin and no death before Adam, a clear contradiction of evolutionary teaching.
DHK

 

[Helen]

If you read Ezekiel 28, you will find that Satan was originally the guardian cherub for Eden. Therefore he did not fall until after mankind was created.

 

[bmerr]

xdisciplex,

bmerr here. You may want to write this down, as it is one of those rare occasions when DHK and I are in complete agreement.

No death before sin - No sin before Adam.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[J. Jump]

Therefore he did not fall until after mankind was created.

I would respectfully disagree that Satan did not fall until after mankind was created. If you take the big picture of Scripture mankind was created to take Satan's place as ruler over the earth. That's why Satan tempted them in the garden. The fall of mankind left Satan still on the throne.

That is what the temptation of Christ was all about. That was His face-to-face meeting with Satan to prove that He was worthy to redeem that which Adam had lost. Among that is rulership over the earth.

Adam and Eve were appointed as rulers, but never took the throne.

 

[LeBuick]

You all don't believe IS 14:12 was before the garden?

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

 

[genesis12]

Isaiah 14:ff speaks of the endtimes. It addresses the status of satan, who with his angels, is forever cast into hell. It follows the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

If one accepts gap theory, or something similar, then a prior existence of a creation of some sort, under satanic control, perhaps, is possible. Is it probable? IDK.

 

[LeBuick]

Isaiah 14:ff speaks of the endtimes. It addresses the status of satan, who with his angels, is forever cast into hell. It follows the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

If one accepts gap theory, or something similar, then a prior existence of a creation of some sort, under satanic control, perhaps, is possible. Is it probable? IDK.

We know GOD existed prior to the creation story. The angels were there at the creation we know that for sure. I do believe Satan is currently ruling this world but I never looked at IS 14 as endtime... Good point.

 

[Brother Bob]

Question;
Can someone point me to more Scripture that Lucifer was satan other than Isaiah: 14:12. I really am in the dark on this one. I have heard it all my life but never been able to prove it by Scriptures. I know Lucifer had a desire to be above God in Heaven but he never made it. I take it as he was only a prince who ended up cast down not from Heaven but from his throne and his exalted thoughts. Help!

 

[genesis12]

Hi, Bob.......... try this:

http://tinyurl.com/gygog

 

[Brother Bob]

double post

 

[Brother Bob]

So, we only have commentaries that Lucifer was satan? We don't have any other Scripture to support

Thanks genesis12; peace

 

[LeBuick]

So, we only have commentaries that Lucifer was satan? We don't have any other Scripture to support

Interesting question, I'll have to give this a lot more thought. I think it as taught in angelology and I took it as truth.

 

[Brother Bob]

When God made good it was impossible to make good without creating evil.
He made=Thou shalt not kill = good
He created=kill=evil

He made=Love the Lord thy God=good
He created=not love the Lord=evil

He made=thou shalt not steal=good
He created=steal=evil

etc.

Does this make any sense? peace

 

[LeBuick]

Yes, that I understand.

[5] I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
[6] That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
[7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I also see where it says till iniquity was found in him... which makes me lean toward the iniquity was there all the time. It just surfaced at the moment.

 

[BobRyan]

Lucifer falls - and then is called Satan.

In Matt 4 he offers "the World" to Christ.

In Isaiah 14 he HAS the world -

Isaiah 14

12
"How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth[/b],
You who have weakened the nations!
13
"But you said in your heart,
'I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
And I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the recesses of the north.
14
'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.'
15
"Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol,
To the recesses of the pit.
16
"Those who see you will gaze at you,
They will ponder over you, saying,
'Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17
Who made the world like a wilderness
And overthrew its cities,
Who did not allow his prisoners to go home?'
18
"All the kings of the nations lie in glory,
Each in his own tomb.
19
"But you have been cast out of your tomb
Like a rejected branch,
Clothed with the slain who are pierced with a sword,
Who go down to the stones of the pit
Like a trampled corpse.

But his end is sure.

 

[BobRyan]

Ezek 28

12"Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD,
"You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

Satan is described as being perfect and full of wisdom at his creation.

Ezek 28

13"You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.

Satan was created and was around by the time of Eden.

14

"You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there
You were on the holy mountain of God;

Satan was one of the covering Cherubs at the throne of God.

You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15"You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.

Satan was created without sin – faultless, blameless until he CHOSE to sin.

Ezek 28
16

"By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.

God cast Satan out and will eventually destroy him.

17

"Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.

Pride was the cause of his fall.

Ezek 28
18

"By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.

The end of Satan has been decreed to be ashes. Fire from the midst of him will consume him. All will see it.

Ezek 28

19

"All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever."'"

Satan will cease to exist.

 

[LeBuick]

True, for some reason I stuck myself in Isaiah and revelations and couldn't get out. I then remembered Ezek and seen you post. One thing I would dispute;

From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.

Satan was created without sin – faultless, blameless until he CHOSE to sin.

I still think because it says unrighteousness was found in you, that the unrighteousness was there all the time. He was created with unrighteousness because it was found and not added or given.

 

[BobRyan]

If God considers "Unrighteousness blameless" then what you say is possible and God would be the "creator of evil".

I don't think that it works in scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Sin entered into the world through Adam, and through sin death entered the world. Thus there was no sin and no death before Adam, a clear contradiction of evolutionary teaching.
DHK

It is true that sin and death entered through Adam -- for "this world" but Lucifer had already fallen and had already caused the fall of 1/3 of the angels in heaven - he was already to be the "serpent of old" the dragan - the devil -- at the time Adam and Eve were created.

They (Satan and his angels) were cast out of heaven - so death did not come to heaven, they could not claim this earth because Adam had not fallen.

Romans 8 says that this creation - this earth was subjected to decay and death due to the fall of Adam.