Was there death already before Adam?

[BobRyan]

In John 15 Christ is the vine and we are the branches - we are In Christ and Christ's word ABIDES IN US.

We don't try to bend twist and obfuscate the lesson of John 15 by asking "But what are the leaves on the branches" or "what is the dirt" or "where is the fence" or "is it springtime yet"??

But I can see some might try such "antics".

Bob said
Quote:
In John 15 - regardless of the state of the vine or the breakfast eaten by the vine grower or any of the incidentals - the "general point" is that those IN Christ are REMOVED from Christ based on the condition of fruit growing (Fruit of the Spirit) or not -- and they die and are cast into fire "outside of Christ". That is the highest level of detail - at the general level that still holds to integrity with the parable. This is not a parable strictly speaking because it holds no story - just a warning.

Ahh - the words of Christ our Lord and Savior in John 15. What wonderful truths He taught there - what a great blessing to sit at his feet and listen and learn.

DHK
Another parable--more fabrication of doctrine. Correct?

And then there is "that" approach to the Words of Christ "by contrast".

Oh well - to each his own.

No. The general point (and it is general) is that those who are attached to the vine have life and those who are not attached to the vine have not life.

The lesson is EXPLICITLY said to be about "fruit" and the WARNING about being TAKEN OUT of the vine of Christ.

Anyone reading the chapter gets that point "instantly" until they then embrace the man-made traditions of OSAS and suddenly realize they must "UNDO" John 15!!

Christ said those taken out - living branches WITHER and then DIE and are cast into the fire. For they were once alive so they WITHER and then die and are cast into the fire.

Key points like this are very important to gloss over if you are determined to cling to the man-made tradition of OSAS no matter what the Bible says.

DHK

There is no such thing as a dead Christian. He never was a Christian in the first place.

Like that!

But then there is the "silly question" about the leaves, and the dirt and "is it really springtime - if so -- why"

DHK
BTW, you never did answer my question: What does the broom represent in the parable of the lost coin?

Yeah - just like that!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:


In Romans 11 it is stated clearly "IF they do not CONTINUE in UNBELIEF, He is able to GRAFT THEM IN AGAIN" that is not a parable at ALL!

In any case - the point being unnanswered - remains.

In Christ,

Bob

DHK
Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
--In the Old Testament, it was Israel that was chosen not the rest of the world who "was cast away."

In Rom 11:8-16 it is the Jews that are cast away for UNBELIEF.

Rom 11:
7What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
...
11I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
12Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!

"Obviously" this is a contrast between Jews and Gentiles (Israel and Gentiles) and it is a claim that Israel failed due to unblief --

Incredibly obvious - to all!

It is not a claim that ALL Israelites go to hell and that ALL gentiles go to heaven.

Obviously.

It is a claim that the Hebrew NATION CHURCH failed - and that there is now an all-nations church system in its place!

Paul is not claiming that He as a Hebrew is going to hell.

Being cast out of the vine of Christ in Rom 11 AND in John 15 is devastating - is fatal - is to fall from grace!

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Clearly it is not "for Israel's benefit" that they are cast out of the vine of Christ. They do not "go to heaven by some OTHER means than Christ"!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

The text in Luke 12:45-55 tells us that GOD measure out the exact torment and suffering owed by EACH one - so that those who KNEW their masters will and were sent to the fires of hell suffer MUCH while those who had relatively little knowledge AND were sent to hell - suffer less.

BUT ALL will pay the price of their sins to the exact amount owed!

Conversely the ACCUMULATED debt for ALL (the EXACT amount owed) was taken up by Christ and paid on the cross.

In Christ,

Bob

This is Bob's SDA's version of purgatory!!! :laugh:

 

[BobRyan]

What a funny response to the Bible texts listed above.

I did not realize that I was a Bible author!!

(BTW all who go to Purgatory - go to heaven)

The Word of God can not be discredited so as to call it " a lesson on purgatory" -- though I suppose when your argument runs out - you could be reduced to that.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Was there death before Adam? Wrong question; it should be: Was there life after Adam?

Since Adam there are only sinners - sinners universal and sinners forgiven; lost sinners and saved sinners. How: By one factor: Forgiveness! The holiest of forgiven sinners is that man most in need of this forgiveness - forgiveness that at the same time is righteousness and life. Through Jesus Christ, of course; ONLY through Him. Woe to the rest ... to the glory of God woe to them; as it is to the glory of God the saved received mercy through Jesus Christ and for no other reason whatsoever.