Was there death already before Adam?

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I honestly do not know how anyone can say they sin every breath they breathe as if breathing is sin. I am lost on that one.

What did Isaiah say? Your RIGHTEOUSNESS is like stinking rags, or something? Still lost on it?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

What did Paul say, Who will redeem or rescue or relieve me of this "BODY OF DEATH"? Now "death" is the wages of what? Still lost on this one, dear Bob?

 

[DHK]

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

 

[webdog]

What did Isaiah say? Your RIGHTEOUSNESS is like stinking rags, or something? Still lost on it?

This says their righteousness is like stinking rags, what it doesn't say is everything an unbeliever does, including breathing, is sin. That's eisegesis.

 

[Brother Bob]

yea, still lost as if I am sinning all the time. what about when I am sleeping? I think maybe you take it a little far. according to your statement when I am preaching the Gospel by the Holy Spirit I am sinning. far out!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

yea, still lost as if I am sinning all the time. what about when I am sleeping? I think maybe you take it a little far. according to your statement when I am preaching the Gospel by the Holy Spirit I am sinning. far out!

I, AM, sin. I do not need to DO something in order to sin in order to become a sinner - I AM a sinner - by heart AM sin. THIS is what I - I don't know about you - have been forgiven for. I, am forgiven - I, am cleaned, by the blood of the Lamb of God who, is my righteousness - all the while I, am being unrighteousness - all the while while I, am being sin.

 

[Hope of Glory]

There are always warnings about sin. The entire Bible is full of warnings about sin. Sin has its consequences. But never does the Bible teach that one can lose his salvation.

Amen!

One problem that you have, Bob, is that you base your theology on parables. One who draws his doctrine from parables is doomed to failure in his theology. A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning. It is given usually to enforce only one main point. Not everything in the parable must mean something. What about the parable of the lost coin? In that parable when the lady searches for the coin that she has lost, what does the broom represent? You probably don't know, do you?

If you look at the parables as relating to saved vs unsaved, then there will be all sorts of problems with the analogies, and I think that's Bob's problem with understanding them.

 

[Hope of Glory]

The regenerated sinner confesses all his sin AND sinfulness;

If this is true, why are we told in 1 John 1:9 that we need to keep confessing our sins?

I am sinning with every breath I breath, just by existing, because I am sinful. I have confessed my sins, all my sins, and without any formal confession of my present or future sin or sinning, I am forgiven, once for all, by Jesus in vanquishing sin and death through Himself dying and rising.

If this is true, why are we told in 1 John 1:9 to keep confessing our sins?

 

[Brother Bob]

I thought it was HoG that had a problem not me. lol

I go by the Word and not what HoG says;

1Peter:1
3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4: To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5: Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time

 

[Hope of Glory]

I thought it was HoG that had a problem not me. lol

I go by the Word and not what HoG says;

1Peter:1
3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4: To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5: Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time

What in the world is this non sequiter that you've posted about?

 

[Brother Bob]

You must of meant the other Bob, sry

But if you must know it means we don't lose our Salvation and that was the point being made by the parables so it is not a non sequiter but has to do with Salvation.

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
In Matt 18 and 2 Tim 2 and Romans 2 and James 2 and Ezek 18 and ... we find "real warning" about "real sin".

DHK
There are always warnings about sin. The entire Bible is full of warnings about sin. Sin has its consequences. But never does the Bible teach that one can lose his salvation.
One problem that you have, Bob, is that you base your theology on parables. One who draws his doctrine from parables is doomed to failure in his theology. A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning. It is given usually to enforce only one main point. Not everything in the parable must mean something.

You are ignoring the inconvenient details in the texts listed above and simply stating what you "wish" had been the case.

For example in Matt 18 - at the end of the parable - after the parable is over - once it has completed... Christ said "SO shall my Father do to EACH one of you if you do not forgive your brother from your heart".

IN the parable regardless of the individuals portrayed the "general point" is forgiveness received and then forgiveness revoked. Christ is warning of "forgiveness revoked".

In John 15 - regardless of the state of the vine or the breakfast eaten by the vine grower or any of the incidentals - the "general point" is that those IN Christ are REMOVED from Christ based on the condition of fruit growing (Fruit of the Spirit) or not -- and they die and are cast into fire "outside of Christ". That is the highest level of detail - at the general level that still holds to integrity with the parable. This is not a parable strictly speaking because it holds no story - just a warning.

In Romans 11 it is stated clearly "IF they do not CONTINUE in UNBELIEF, He is able to GRAFT THEM IN AGAIN" that is not a parable at ALL!

In any case - the point being unnanswered - remains.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I honestly do not know how anyone can say they sin every breath they breathe as if breathing is sin. I am lost on that one.

It is very useful if you want to ignore 1John 2 "The one who SAYS he knows Christ should WALK as Christ walked - if they do not they are lying".

It is very useful for ignoring the argument Paul makes in Romans 2.

It is incredibly useful for ignoring James 2.

It is wonderful for ignoring Romans 7 "BY their fruits you shall know them".

It actually has a great many uses!

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
When Rom 11 says of unbelieving Jews that "IF they do not continue in their unbelief HE is able to graft them BACK IN AGAIN to the vine of Christ" is that state of UNBELIEF the "saved state" according to the Gospel?

DHK said
Now you are mixing up the Gentiles with the nation of Israel. This again is moot, and has nothing to do with the eternal security of the believer.

I did not write Romans 11.

Paul says "YOU fear because YOU stand only by your faith. IF HE did NOT spare the natural branches (Jews) NEITHER will he spare YOU... HE is able to GRAFT THEM IN AGAIN if THEY do not continue in unbelief".

#1. Paul was a Jew -- obviously.
#2. Romans is written to BOTH Jews and Gentiles (See YOU and THEY in the text)
#3. Paul is the one that mixes the two and you have not addressed the point that debunks OSAS where we see UNBELIEVING JEWS on the outside IN UNBELIEF - and that is the very condition Paul is warning US of who are IN the vine!!

Having not addressed the point in your response - the point remains.

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Is "salvation" defined in the Gospel as "having your forgivness revoked" as in Matt 18 and Ezek 18?

DHK said --
I don't know what you are talking about. Again you try and define something and take doctrine out of a parable. That is not good
hermeutics.

First of all I congratulate you for backhandedly admitting that the words of Christ in Matt 18 DO show forgiveness revoked and that you DO need to avoid the parable at all costs!

But the model you propose that is of the form "ignore the words of Christ when spoken either IN a parable OR EVEN when summarizing HIS OWN PARABLE" has never worked as a form of exegesis - not ever in all of time.

And it is not working still today.

 

[David Michael Harris]

Where does the bible say death did not exist before the fall? What if death already existed after Satan's fall?

This is interesting. Sin leads to spiritual death for sure. Did trees, flowers etc die before the fall? Logic would tell you yes seeing they where seed producing to renew themselves etc etc. Hebrews talks about 'fear of death' without God death is fearful. Also the term 'second death' crops up a lot.

Also consider reproduction.

Good question, enquiring mind

 

[Brother Bob]

The parables were at a time of transition and as of then the Holy Ghost had not been given to the saved. Also, the blood had not even been shed as of yet. Sure they could fall under the Law and that is why we needed the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Brother Bob]

1 John, chapter 2
And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Please note, it says "if any man sin" and I don't believe it is a sin unto death for if so Jesus said to not even pray for it.

Romans, chapter 2
Again, those under the Law and before Salvation and the Holy Ghost. Really the only difference between those under the law and those under Grace is now it is within you and not fleshly.

Again I say, "if you sin". peace

 

[DHK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
In Matt 18 and 2 Tim 2 and Romans 2 and James 2 and Ezek 18 and ... we find "real warning" about "real sin".

You are ignoring the inconvenient details in the texts listed above and simply stating what you "wish" had been the case.

For example in Matt 18 - at the end of the parable - after the parable is over - once it has completed... Christ said "SO shall my Father do to EACH one of you if you do not forgive your brother from your heart".

IN the parable regardless of the individuals portrayed the "general point" is forgiveness received and then forgiveness revoked. Christ is warning of "forgiveness revoked".

Again you ignore the fact that it is a parable and try to force a teaching into this parable that is not there. Let's look at some Biblical details that you conveniently choose to ignore.

Matthew 18:34-35 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
25 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
--"My heavenly father" Who is Jesus speaking to? Look back to verse 21:
"Then Peter came to him, and said, "Lord...
He is speaking to Peter and the rest of his disciples.
Your conclusion then is that at sometime Peter lost his salvation. It was "revoked." Ridiculous!

Was the "heaveny Father" spoken of the Heavenly Father of Peter as well? Yes or No? Did not Jesus teach his disciples to pray: "Our Father who art in Heaven?" Did He not teach Nicodemus: "You must be born again." You must be born into God's family in order to have God as your father. Once born into God's family he will never disown you. He will never cast you out. He will never deliver you to the tormentors (of Hell) which you conveniently read into that passage. It is not there. It is a parable.

Third. What then do the tormentors refer to? Obviously they do not refer to little red demons of hell running around with hot pokers continually tormenting the one who has reached hell because of "forgiveness revoked." This is your idea, unsubstantiated by Scripture. The "torment" referred to is simply "chastisement" Refer to Hebrews 12 for Biblical support. A loving father will chastise his son, even as our heavenly Father will chastise his children. It does not mean send them to hell. And it certainly has nothing to do with revoking their salvation. Salvation is always intact; Always. One can never lose their salvation. Just because a child is chastised doesn't mean he is disowned or thrown into hell. That is not the meaning here. This is your eisigesis, and your mistake of reading into a parable a teaching that goes contrary to Biblical doctrine. You cannot fabricate doctrine from parables. And that is what you are doing.

In John 15 - regardless of the state of the vine or the breakfast eaten by the vine grower or any of the incidentals - the "general point" is that those IN Christ are REMOVED from Christ based on the condition of fruit growing (Fruit of the Spirit) or not -- and they die and are cast into fire "outside of Christ". That is the highest level of detail - at the general level that still holds to integrity with the parable. This is not a parable strictly speaking because it holds no story - just a warning.

Another parable--more fabrication of doctrine. Correct?
No. The general point (and it is general) is that those who are attached to the vine have life and those who are not attached to the vine have not life. That is simple. Another point is that those who are attached to the vine need purging every once and awhile so that through their trials they may grow even stronger, and bear more fruit. Dead branches grow no fruit. There is no such thing as a dead Christian. He never was a Christian in the first place.
BTW, you never did answer my question: What does the broom represent in the parable of the lost coin?

In Romans 11 it is stated clearly "IF they do not CONTINUE in UNBELIEF, He is able to GRAFT THEM IN AGAIN" that is not a parable at ALL!

In any case - the point being unnanswered - remains.

In Christ,

Bob

Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
--In the Old Testament, it was Israel that was chosen not the rest of the world who "was cast away."

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
--Not all the Israelites believed by faith. Salvation has always been by faith. Not all Israelites are Israelites. The question is often asked: Was Saul saved? I don't believe he was, though he was a king? What about Ahab, the most wicked king that ever reigned. He was not a "true" Israelite. Because of unbelief he was broken off. He never believed in the first place.

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
--A true Christian will contine in the goodness of God. Read the context. Blindness happened to Israel. For this reason the Gentile (Christians) have been grafted in. Compared with John 3, once a part of the family always a part of the family.
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

The Parable of Matt 18 is told to PETER and those faithful followers of Christ standing with him in answer to PETER's question about forgiving others! "How many times shall I forgive one who sins against me".

Christ's answer is that PETER HAD BEEN forgiven so fully - so wonderfully that Peter must show forgiveness to others "in kind".

#1. In the "parable" the servant owed the king money.

In REAL life we all owe the 2nd death - torment and suffering DUE as the penalty of unforgiven sin.

#2. In the "parable" the servant is to be sold along with his family.

In REAL life - we EACH ONE must pay for our OWN debt of sin in the lake of fire. Our family can not pay for us.

#3. In the "parable" the King forgives freely EVEN though the repentant servant offers to "repay all"

In REAL life we don't dare offer to pay our debt of sin - we ask for forgiveness because that is the only option -- the lake of fire is not a good choice.

#4. In the Parable it is out of the REAL sense of gratitude for REAL forgiveness that the servant is SUPPOSED to forgive others. The king hold's him accountable and does not say "I did not actually forgive you so you did not really need to forgive others".

God "really" tells us to do the same. To forgive others out of gratitude for our own sins being forgiven.

#5. In the Parable forgiveness of debt is FULLY revoked.

In Real life, having our forgiveness revoked would not only cause us to OWE for our initial sins we would ALSWE for the debt of sin incurred by not forgiving others!

#5 When the PARABLE of forgiveness revoked. IS OVER - Christ adds "SO shall my Father do to EACH one if you IF you do not forgive your brother from your heart.

Impossible to simply IGNORE the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

DHK said -
Again you ignore the fact that it is a parable and try to force a teaching into this parable that is not there.

Wrong. I am simply noting the differences between the parable and real lilfe AND also noting the eternal truths Christ is teaching in that parable AND outside the parable as HE draws the summary conclusion FOR US.

DHK
Let's look at some Biblical details that you conveniently choose to ignore.

Hey no fair - you are using "me" against "me".

DHK

Matthew 18:34-35 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
25 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
--"My heavenly father" Who is Jesus speaking to? Look back to verse 21:
"Then Peter came to him, and said, "Lord...


He is speaking to Peter and the rest of his disciples.

Well you have that much right.

I am amazed!!

My conclusion is that Christ's argument to peter is "70x7" BECAUSE Peter IS forgiven fully and completely. Christ then WARNS Peter (and all of us) not to fail in this regard.

A note about the "obvious". WARNING someone AGAINST failing is NOT the same thing as saying that we all MUST fail.

I know that is clearly obvious to all - but I thought I would mention it.

DHK
Your conclusion then is that at sometime Peter lost his salvation. It was "revoked."

oops - I take that back. Apparently it was not "obvious" to ALL.

We missed one.

DHK
Was the "heaveny Father" spoken of the Heavenly Father of Peter as well? Yes or No? Did not Jesus teach his disciples to pray: "Our Father who art in Heaven?" Did He not teach Nicodemus: "You must be born again." You must be born into God's family in order to have God as your father.

Yep - that is the SAME Christ giving the warning in Matt 18 to that SAME group to whom HE taught the Lord's prayer BECAUSE the point of the parable is GRATITUDE within THAT group for having BEEN forgiven.

Get it?

The Lesson in Matt 18 is the warning of "forgivenes revoked" you can not bend and twist the scripture by then saying "NOPE could never happen - not gonna listen to that - little detail".

Third. What then do the tormentors refer to? Obviously they do not refer to little red demons of hell running around with hot pokers continually tormenting the one who has reached hell because of "forgiveness revoked." This is your idea, unsubstantiated by Scripture.

There you go "making stuff up" for me to believe.

Try returning to the facts for a while.

The text in Luke 12:45-55 tells us that GOD measure out the exact torment and suffering owed by EACH one - so that those who KNEW their masters will and were sent to the fires of hell suffer MUCH while those who had relatively little knowledge AND were sent to hell - suffer less.

BUT ALL will pay the price of their sins to the exact amount owed!

Conversely the ACCUMULATED debt for ALL (the EXACT amount owed) was taken up by Christ and paid on the cross.

In Christ,

Bob