Was there death already before Adam?

[Hope of Glory]

Yes you have. You have implied it many tmes in this post. If a man has unconfessed sin he is lost. This is your view isn't it?

I made a post in anger, but I have edited it. It offends me greatly that you would state an out-and-out lie about me.

I have repeatedly confronted the false teaching that salvation is based upon any works on our part whatsoever, whether to get saved, stay saved, or prove our salvation.

I have directly and repeatedly confronted the false teaching that sin or any other work can cause us to lose our salvation.

I have shown the Scripture repeatedly that our salvation is based soley on the finished work of the Lord Jesus on the cross and nothing else.

Yet, you state this slander about me.

 

[Deacon]

Here we are 21 pages into this discussion and no one has stated the obvious.

YES, there was death before the fall.

Adam was given plants to eat, the plants died.

How does this change your theology about the fall? (It doesn't)

Would it change if bacteria died too? how about animals? (No)

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—" (Ro 5:12 NAS)

Surely we can know biblically that death came upon man through sin.

Rob

 

[Brother Bob]

Jhn 8:21Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.Doesn't say anything about suffering here or nothing just you can't go to Heaven if you die in your unforgiven sins. That is what Salvation is all about that those who have their sins blotted out can go and those who still have their sins when death finds them can't.


2Ki 14:6But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Again, there is a sin which will not cause you to lose your Salvation and there is a sin unto death and that is the second death. Woe unto that man who has a unforgiven sin unto death when he dies.

I would like to know why you cannot blasphemy the Holy Ghost now and that is to say God hath an unclean Spirit.

 

[Brother Bob]

I made a post in anger, but I have edited it. It offends me greatly that you would state an out-and-out lie about me.

I have repeatedly confronted the false teaching that salvation is based upon any works on our part whatsoever, whether to get saved, stay saved, or prove our salvation.

I have directly and repeatedly confronted the false teaching that sin or any other work can cause us to lose our salvation.

I have shown the Scripture repeatedly that our salvation is based soley on the finished work of the Lord Jesus on the cross and nothing else.

Yet, you state this slander about me.

Well you and James sure differ!!

I wonder why do we have an advocate with God if we sin if it is not necessary, anyone know?
1 John, chapter 2

"1": My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

As ministers of righteous please teach others not to sin, and not they can go to Heaven whether they sin or not.

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
I will say this, a true child of God would not steal the gum to start with.

Oh, really?

Would a true child of God go over the speed limit?

What's the magic line that decides who is and who isn't a true child of God?

Stealing is a commandment not to.

over speed limit? Never found it as of yet but still looking.

 

[DHK]

I made a post in anger, but I have edited it. It offends me greatly that you would state an out-and-out lie about me.

I have repeatedly confronted the false teaching that salvation is based upon any works on our part whatsoever, whether to get saved, stay saved, or prove our salvation.

I have directly and repeatedly confronted the false teaching that sin or any other work can cause us to lose our salvation.

I have shown the Scripture repeatedly that our salvation is based soley on the finished work of the Lord Jesus on the cross and nothing else.

Yet, you state this slander about me.

I have not slandered you at all. I know that in theory you believe in OSAS, and of course, in the finished work of Christ. However your theology is inconsistent with what you are posting. I'll post your exact statements again.

"Well, except for unconfessed sin, it's never too late for forgiveness, and until you die, it's not too late to confess your sins."
"God will not forgive unconfessed sin, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age, nor in the next, and lawlessness (willful sin) hold a special place of importance in the Scriptures"
"Here's an if/then statement. If we don't confess our sins, guess what? He's faithful and just to not forgive us our sins."

You have firmly stated that God does not forgive unconfessed sin. Thus, like RCC theology, if a man has unconfessed sin in his life, and dies without notice, he goes to hell. Am I not right in assuming this? What other conclusion could one come to? That is why the priests in the RCC have the sacrament of extreme unction. They can sprinkle a little holy water on the dying person and make sure they go to heaven if they don't have a chance to confess their sins. Now I know you don't believe that, but it almost sounds like it. You are teaching that if a man suddenly dies and still has unconfessed sin on his heart he is banned from heaven. Correct?
DHK

 

[DHK]

Here we are 21 pages into this discussion and no one has stated the obvious.

YES, there was death before the fall.

Adam was given plants to eat, the plants died.

How does this change your theology about the fall? (It doesn't)

Would it change if bacteria died too? how about animals? (No)

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—" (Ro 5:12 NAS)

You are contradicting the Bible by the statements that you have made and the verse you have quoted.
First, the death being spoken of is no doubt referring to what we call the animal kingdom.
Secondly, even if it did refer to all plants and animals, your statements would not necessarily be true. They ate of the fruit of the trees that were in the garden. The trees themselves never died. There is no evidence that anything died while Adam and Eve were in the garden. We only have your unsubstantiated opinion to go on, which isn't worth much if it is contradicted by the Bible.

Surely we can know biblically that death came upon man through sin.

Rob

Quite true, so why try and contradict it. That statement in itself rules out the gap theory.
DHK

 

[Hope of Glory]

You have firmly stated that God does not forgive unconfessed sin. Thus, like RCC theology, if a man has unconfessed sin in his life, and dies without notice, he goes to hell. Am I not right in assuming this?

That's the problem with assumptions. Please go with what I stated.

Every man is accountable for his works in the flesh. If you don't confess your sins per 1 John 1:9, you are not forgiven of those sins.

Where did I ever mention going to the lake of fire?

At the Judgment Seat of Christ, there will be those who get rewards, those who suffer loss, and even those who are chastised.

What other conclusion could one come to?

You could come to the conclusion that I said what I meant and that nowhere did I mention a thing about losing your spiritual salvation.

You are teaching that if a man suddenly dies and still has unconfessed sin on his heart he is banned from heaven. Correct?

That would be quite incorrect. That would be taking what I said and then coming to the exact opposite conclusion and then spreading a lie that I said something that I did not say.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Stealing is a commandment not to.

over speed limit? Never found it as of yet but still looking.

You mean, it's not a sin if we don't obey the laws of man?

But, that's of no importance.

Will you answer two questions:

Do you think it's impossible for a child of God to sin?

You have stated that a child of God couldn't steal a pack of gum. What's the magic line of sin that defines a child of God?

 

[Hope of Glory]

I wonder why do we have an advocate with God if we sin if it is not necessary, anyone know?
1 John, chapter 2

"1": My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Why is it that you are now trying to make false insinuations about me? Please show me where I have ever said that we don't need to confess sins?

The only thing that I have done is opposed your teaching of a works-based salvation that is based upon confessing sin.

As ministers of righteous please teach others not to sin, and not they can go to Heaven whether they sin or not.

Oh, I forgot. The Holy Spirit left that part out, right? "What must I do to be saved?" "Believe on the Lord Jesus and don't sin, or at least don't die with unconfessed sin and you will be saved."

 

[DHK]

There is no assumption here. I quoted what you said. Here it is again:

"Well, except for unconfessed sin, it's never too late for forgiveness, and until you die, it's not too late to confess your sins."
"God will not forgive unconfessed sin, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age, nor in the next, and lawlessness (willful sin) hold a special place of importance in the Scriptures"
"Here's an if/then statement. If we don't confess our sins, guess what? He's faithful and just to not forgive us our sins."

Every man is accountable for his works in the flesh. If you don't confess your sins per 1 John 1:9, you are not forgiven of those sins.

And the result?

Where did I ever mention going to the lake of fire?

You didn't. It was inferred.

At the Judgment Seat of Christ, there will be those who get rewards, those who suffer loss, and even those who are chastised.

The Judgement Seat of Christ is recorded in 1Cor.3:11ff. It speaks of rewards and loss of rewards. It does not speak of salvation, and it does not speak of chastisement. I challenge you to show me where it speaks of either one. If you say it speaks of chastisement then your doctrine is akin to the RCC doctrine of purgatory. That is where they claim that they get the doctrine from.

You could come to the conclusion that I said what I meant and that nowhere did I mention a thing about losing your spiritual salvation.
That would be quite incorrect. That would be taking what I said and then coming to the exact opposite conclusion and then spreading a lie that I said something that I did not say.

When I got saved Christ forgave ALL my sins: past, present and future--that includes all the unconfessed ones. If it didn't that Christ's work on the cross would not be sufficient enough to cover or pay the penalty for ALL my sins--just the ones that I have asked forgiveness for. Christ forgave me unconditionally; not with a condition attached.
Your God has salvation with a condition attached. That condition is unbliblical. Like the RCC teaches you must confess your sin. This is what you have written. They are not my words; they are yours.
God does not forgive unconfessed sins. If that is true there is no salvation for those with unconfessed sin at the time of death. You don't clarify what you say. You make an all inclusive statement that a person has no forgiveness. The automatic result is that they are doomed to Hell. That can be the only conclusion to that statement, because sin cannot enter into heaven, and you just said God does not forgive unconfessed sin. So, unless you believe in purgatory and you are a Catholic posing as a Baptist, what on earth do you believe?
DHK

 

[Brother Bob]

Oh, I forgot. The Holy Spirit left that part out, right? "What must I do to be saved?" "Believe on the Lord Jesus and don't sin, or at least don't die with unconfessed sin and you will be saved."

"1": My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

I don't believe a child of God will sin a sin unto death. You can believe what you want but I think it is wrong to insinuate that a child of God can still act like a worldly person. I believe if there is not change in a person then they were never saved. Paul sure said with such a one not to eat, but according to you it don't make a difference. peace

Unless I am missing something you are standing one way with DHK and just the opposite with me or am I misreading your post?

 

[BobRyan]

In Matt 18 and 2 Tim 2 and Romans 2 and James 2 and Ezek 18 and ... we find "real warning" about "real sin".

But what IF we could simply ignore that - and pretend that all the consequences listed are simply "The SAVED state"? You know, "Peace and safety".



Is "salvation" defined in the Gospel as "having your forgivness revoked" as in Matt 18 and Ezek 18?

Is "salvation" as defined in the Gospel really "being denied by Christ" as in 2Tim2?

Is "Salvation" as defined in the Gospel really "being cast out of the vine of Christ, withered and dead, and cast into fire"? as in John 15.

When Rom 11 says of unblieving Jews that "IF they do not continue in their unbelief HE is able to graft them BACK IN AGAIN to the vine of Christ" is that state of UNBELIEF the "saved state" according to the Gospel?

If you DO find the Gospel delcaring that all these conditions are the SAVED state - then the first step is to show it - not to simply presume it.

 

[Brother Bob]

10: For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11: For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
I don't believe it is the saved!

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father

2Ti 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve [me] unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished

2Ti 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve [me] unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.


1Peter:1
3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4: To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5: Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quoting,

"God does not forgive unconfessed sins."

The regenerated sinner confesses all his sin AND sinfulness; he believes in Christ Jesus the Ransom for ALL his sin AND sinfulness - which means, ALL sins are forgiven the believer - all sin past, present and future. Because it all had been forgiven through and in Jesus Christ, when HE, died in MY, stead.

I am sinning with every breath I breath, just by existing, because I am sinful. I have confessed my sins, all my sins, and without any formal confession of my present or future sin or sinning, I am forgiven, once for all, by Jesus in vanquishing sin and death through Himself dying and rising.

I may only rejoice in His mercy - it shall mean I always am accepted of Him a confessing sinner!

 

[BobRyan]

10: For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11: For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
I don't believe it is the saved!

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

There is no doubt that the saints have many amazing promises in the Gospel and that this is how they obtain salvation and this is how they "persevere" in faith.

so who is Christ speaking to in Matt 7, and Matt 18 (forgiveness revoked) and in John 15 (branches that are then cast out of the vine of Christ, wither and die and are burned in fire) and 2Tim2 etc?

Who is the "WE" and the "US" that Paul references in 2Timothy - are these also the "Saved"?

If so - why is he giving them a "Warning" in 2Tim2 and in Romans 11 and in Romans 2 about something that "could never happen in all of time" to saved person?

Who is he speaking to?

Who is Christ speaking to in John 15 as he speaks in perfect agreement with that we see in Romans 11?

Why give these "warnings" if they are like a warning about "Falling up into the sky and out to the moon"? Why is the Bible so focused on warning us of things that by our definition - can never happen?

 

[Brother Bob]

22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

(Talking about those who are blind and fall in the ditch)
16: But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17: And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican
(If you do over take someone like this then they too do not have the real thing, but are heatherns)
5: I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6: If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

(They are as the prodical son and left home when the law entered into them and instead of following and believing they chose to go in darkness. They are not the saved. We are all God’s children by creation.)
21: If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

(There were all kinds there but only those who purge himself became the vessels of honour, sanctified, and these shall never fall.)
25: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

(He was talking about the Gentiles as a nation and not individuals)

2 Peter, chapter 1
"4": Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

"5": And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

"6": And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

"7": And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

"8": For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

"9": But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

"10": Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


I believe in a Strong God who is able to deliver His people all the way. He said I will never leave you or forsake you. I believe Him.


Galatians, chapter 2
4": And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

"5": To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

"6": But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:

They always had these kind of people among them and so do we today.

 

[BobRyan]

That is the part we agree on.

 

[Brother Bob]

I honestly do not know how anyone can say they sin every breath they breathe as if breathing is sin. I am lost on that one.

 

[DHK]

In Matt 18 and 2 Tim 2 and Romans 2 and James 2 and Ezek 18 and ... we find "real warning" about "real sin".

There are always warnings about sin. The entire Bible is full of warnings about sin. Sin has its consequences. But never does the Bible teach that one can lose his salvation.
One problem that you have, Bob, is that you base your theology on parables. One who draws his doctrine from parables is doomed to failure in his theology. A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning. It is given usually to enforce only one main point. Not everything in the parable must mean something. What about the parable of the lost coin? In that parable when the lady searches for the coin that she has lost, what does the broom represent? You probably don't know, do you?
Most of your references are taken out of context.

Is "salvation" defined in the Gospel as "having your forgivness revoked" as in Matt 18 and Ezek 18?

I don't know what you are talking about. Again you try and define something and take doctrine out of a parable. That is not good hermeutics. The gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If any man come unto you and bring not this gospel let him be accursed, Paul said. The gospel is not "forgiveness revoked." You have another gospel. Remember the words of Paul.

Is "salvation" as defined in the Gospel really "being denied by Christ" as in 2Tim2?

The second chapter of of 2Tim. is large so I will guess at the verse you are referring to.

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
--I trust this is the verse.
The verse is moot as far as your argument is concerned. You have no argument, unless of course you are considering denying Christ. Are you? There are thousands of Christians registered on this board Bob. How many of them are seriously considering denying Christ? What is your guess? What percentage? It is a moot point. A true believer does not deny Christ, and has no desire to.
Likewise a true believer will suffer for Christ. I have. Have you? Are you willing to? Paul said to Timothy: "Yea, and all who live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. Do you have a problem with this? Are these conditions to you? These are facts of the Christian life. If we don't suffer; if we don't affirm our Christian faith, then perhaps we aren't really Christians to begin with. Your point in this verse is moot. It is no argument at all.

Is "Salvation" as defined in the Gospel really "being cast out of the vine of Christ, withered and dead, and cast into fire"? as in John 15.

Another parable; another warped doctrine. Your hermeneutics is very bad. You need to take a course in hermeneutics.
Did you ever notice that the verse begins by saying: "He that abides not in me..." Why did you fail to mention that Bob? Why did you take the verse out of its context? Only to fit your preconceived ideas that are unbiblical. One who was never attached to the vine in the first place never had life. The verse doesn't say was attached, broke off all of a sudden. That is your assumption. You are reading too much into the parable. The point is very simple. If you are not attached to the vine you have not life. It is the vine; it is Christ that gives life. It makes no mention of a previous life of being attached to the vine. That cannot be assumed. That is reading too much into the parable. An unattached branch is unsaved. It never was saved.

When Rom 11 says of unblieving Jews that "IF they do not continue in their unbelief HE is able to graft them BACK IN AGAIN to the vine of Christ" is that state of UNBELIEF the "saved state" according to the Gospel?

Now you are mixing up the Gentiles with the nation of Israel. This again is moot, and has nothing to do with the eternal security of the believer.

If you DO find the Gospel delcaring that all these conditions are the SAVED state - then the first step is to show it - not to simply presume it.

I have presumed nothing. I simply believe the Bible whereas you don't. Jesus said very simply: "I give unto them eternal life."
Is that so difficult a statement to understand?
DHK