Was there death already before Adam?

[BobRyan]

The fact that the "standard of good and righteousness" always existed (which means the "definition for sin" always existed) does not mean that evil always existed.

For Evil to "exist" someone has to do it. For evil to be "defined" someone merely has to say what is "Right" and "righteous" and what is not.

You seem to slip back and forth between these two ideas calling them both "the existence of evil"

 

[Hope of Glory]

The text does not say "The earth became wasted and void"

Actually, that's explicitly and precisely what it says. Except, I might use "chaos" instead of "without form", although "waste" is quite sufficient to get the idea across. The LXX also reads this same way.

Now, you might decide that's not really what it means, but that is precisely what it says.

after being created with only rocks and water on it.

Well, you're reverting back to your ways of lying about people. Show me where I said this.

It does not say "The earth was destroyed" in Genesis 1.

In Genesis 1, it simply says that it was created, and at some point, it became waste and void. We're also told elsewhere that Satan and those who followed him...

Why bother. If you're going to lie about one thing that is said, there's no point.

I'm going back to ignoring you, since you still cannot seem to cease from lying.

 

[Brother Bob]

We were getting along so good too. peace

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
It does not say "The earth was destroyed" in Genesis 1.

In Genesis 1, it simply says that it was created, and at some point, it became waste and void.

Genesis 1 starts off saying "God created everything".

But the remainder of the chapter and part of chapter 2 describes the creation of "this world" and of all life on it - and of our solar system.

Then 2Peter 3 tells us that those who claim that "FROM the creation" of this world until now ALL has continued without change - are MISSING the fact that the world was destroyed once - by the flood.

Your story about makes it appear that the world was MADE with "what on it??" and then "destroyed twice"?? by what?? since the creation.

IT does not work.

When God made the earth it was at that point "formless and void".

THEN (either immediatly or some gap of time afterward) God began the 7 day creation week for all life "here".

 

[Deacon]

Unless Genesis describes how God created the heavens and the earth, and then describes how God filled the land he created.

Rob

 

[Brother Bob]

For Evil to "exist" someone has to do it. For evil to be "defined" someone merely has to say what is "Right" and "righteous" and what is not.

This is exactly what I have been saying all along and God is the one who merely said what was "Right and Righteous. When He said it is up in the air and I do not argue that point for I do not know. peace

When the Scripture says "God created evil" does not say in anyway that he is making man do evil but merely saying what is evil if a man does it. Satan makes him do it or following after satan. As in the first time we read where Satan deceived man/woman and said "you shall surely not die". Well God it the one who had the power to send death on man if he did eat of the tree, not Satan.

 

[J. Jump]

When God made the earth it was at that point "formless and void".

Why would a God that is Absolute Perfection create something that was not? That doesn't even make sense in and of itself, but in Isaiah He explicitly tells us He did not create it that way.

45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited), "I am the LORD, and there is none else. And that's a good enough testimony for me! He said He didn't do it, so I'll take Him at His Word!

 

[LeBuick]

Why would a God that is Absolute Perfection create something that was not? That doesn't even make sense in and of itself, but in Isaiah He explicitly tells us He did not create it that way.

45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited), "I am the LORD, and there is none else. And that's a good enough testimony for me! He said He didn't do it, so I'll take Him at His Word!

Same question, why would a GOD that is Absolute Perfection have to void a previos creation and start over again?

 

[J. Jump]

Same question, why would a GOD that is Absolute Perfection have to void a previos creation and start over again?

That's a different question, but the answer is that an imperfect creation (Lucifer) decided to rebel. And in his rebellion he caused a ruin to come on the part that he was put in charge of.

So God created a perfect earth (Genesis 1:1), but at some point (we are not told exactly when) Lucifer rebelled along with a 1/3 of the angels that were under his authority (2/3s did not) and caused the earth (which is what he was given charge over) to come under judgment (formless, void and dark) and so God had to restore the material creation (Genesis 1:2 starts this process).

He took six days to restore the ruined earth (same earth but just in a ruined state) and then He rested on the seventh day.

This is the way He sets matters out when it comes to the restoration of a ruined creation. So God is at work again six days (six thousand years as per II Peter) restoring man (which is a ruined creation because of the fall) and then He will again rest on the seventh day (1,000-year reign of Christ which is the Day of the Lord).

See God lays out the overall plan in the very opening chapter of His revelation to mankind.

That is the foundation to which the rest of Scripture builds on. If we destroy that foundation then we are going to have a corrupt building when we are finished. Some parts might fit right here and there, but it's not going to come out right as a whole.

That is why it is critical to gain a proper understanding of the foundation that God has laid out for us.

 

[webdog]

Same question, why would a GOD that is Absolute Perfection have to void a previos creation and start over again?

Sin (which wasn't there from the onset)

 

[DHK]

The Scriptures say "God Created Evil" and to say otherwise is to deny the Scriptures!

Is it? And did God said what you are making him out to say?

by LeBuick
Ok, do you agree GOD is the only creator? Is 45:7 says, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." GOD said he created evil, not me.

I don't believe that God said that, and I don't believe that you can demonstrate it through Scripture. God is not the author of evil. Do you really believe you serve an evil god? Unbelievable!!

The contension of your misunderstanding of Scripture lies in this verse:
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
--But what does it mean?
Isaah is not referring to moral evil.
He is referring to the opposite of peace. The statement is a clear parallelism. "I make peace and I create evil.
What is the opposite of peace? It is war. That is the type of evil he is speaking of, not moral evil.
Consider a couple of other Scriptures:

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
--Evil does not come from God. God cannot be tempted with evil; neither does he tempt any man with evil. There it is. The Bible does not contradict itself.

Psalms 65:6-7 Which by his strength setteth fast the mountains; being girded with power: Which stilleth the noise of the seas, the noise of their waves, and the tumult of the people.
--The Psalmist speaks of peace. What kind of peace--earthly peace. The peace when the waters of the sea are stilled, the tumult of the people are made quiet, etc. This is not moral peace. It is the type of peace when you find an absence of war and fighting.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
--Shall there be evil in a city. Again what does the evil refer to? It refers to the noise, the war, the uprising, the tumult, etc. It does not refer to moral evil, to actual individual sin.

It is obvious that you both are taking Isaiah 45:7 out of its context. God is not the author of evil. He can bring about a chaotic situation (as he is doing in America) by his own power. That does not make him evil. He can also bring about a peaceful situation as he did in the times of both Daniel and Joseph.
God is not the author of moral evil.
We do not serve an evil god. God forbid!!
DHK

 

[Brother Bob]

Is it? And did God said what you are making him out to say?

DHK;
You do err by thinking we are saying when someone does evil that God made him do that. We in no way are saying that. But you also err in saying God did not say "He created evil". Why do you always change the meaning of Scriptures to fit your preconceived belief. When we say God created evil we are saying God decided what "evil" is, and if man does that, he is doing it at the will of satan not God. Evil in order to be evil has to be against God. How can satan say what it is that God does not allow. God only, has the right to say what is good and what is evil. You are trying to take away God's power and give it to satan. You do err. peace

The only way you can do evil is against God. If you kill someone it is against God. If you steal from your neighbor it is against God. You cannot do evil against satan for that is what he would call good.

 

[LeBuick]

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
--Evil does not come from God. God cannot be tempted with evil; neither does he tempt any man with evil. There it is. The Bible does not contradict itself.

I never said GOD tempted man, we know satan is the tempter.

Mt 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

It is obvious that you both are taking Isaiah 45:7 out of its context. God is not the author of evil. He can bring about a chaotic situation (as he is doing in America) by his own power. That does not make him evil. He can also bring about a peaceful situation as he did in the times of both Daniel and Joseph.
God is not the author of moral evil.
We do not serve an evil god. God forbid!!DHK

I never said GOD was evil. If I made liquor, would that make me a drunk or an alcoholic?

Different route, GOD made satan. Iniquity was later found in satan. How did that iniquity get there?

Can something be in the creation that they creator did not put in it?

If so, you are subscribing to a second creator? Who would that be?

 

[Brother Bob]

God made the creature subject to vanity. What does that mean if it does not mean man can do wrong?

 

[DHK]

I never said GOD was evil. If I made liquor, would that make me a drunk or an alcoholic?

God created man with a free will. He did not create man as a robot, to automatically bow down and repetitively say: "I worship Jehovah; I worship Jehovah; I worship Jehovah, etc." No, He created man in his own image, with a choice to choose to worship him of his own volition, without being forced to do so. That is what God desires of man.
If you take the grapes of the vine and corrupt them by making them into an alcoholic beverage then you have a corrupted beverage. You have made that your own choice. You can choose to sin. You can choose to commit adultery or any other sin. You have the choice. God gave it to you.

Different route, GOD made satan. Iniquity was later found in satan. How did that iniquity get there?

Lucifer sinned of his own accord. So did the one third angels that followed him. They no doubt went through a probation period, a period of testing such as Adam and Eve did. Those angels that passed that test, and were faithful to God were confirmed in their holiness. Those that were not were cast out of heaven. But it was their choice to rebel against God.

Can something be in the creation that they creator did not put in it?

White is not a color; it is the reflection of all colors.
Black is not a color; it is the absorption of all colors.
Since black and white are not colors, and God created all the colors of the universe, did he create black and white?
Yes there are things that are in the universe that God did not directly create, but are there as a consequence of what He did create.

If so, you are subscribing to a second creator? Who would that be?

That is not true at all. Your conclusion is non sequitor.
DHK

 

[DHK]

God made the creature subject to vanity. What does that mean if it does not mean man can do wrong?

You are quoting from the Book of Romans. That was written how many thousands of years after Adam and Eve were created?
So, now we live in a cursed world, cursed by sin, and subject to decay and the laws of Second Thermodynamics. Yes it is subject to vanity and decay. We wait for the redemption of our bodies, and until then we will groan in them, and endure the pain and suffering that they give us. In fact the whole world groans and travails with us. Someday God will make a new earth and a new heaven. Right now man does sin--every day if you are honest with God and honest with yourself.
DHK

 

[Hope of Glory]

In Isaiah 45:7, he "formed" darkness. "Yatzar". Gave form to something previously existing.

He "created" darkness. "Bara". Created from nothing. (Some argue, and it seems plausible, that this is referring to the dark material from which everything in Genesis 1:1-3 was made; he created the material from nothing, and then formed it.) Isaiah seems to be referring to the struggle between the two coexistent principles of light and dark, and showing God's sovereignty over both.

He "made" the good; welfare or peace.

He "created" ("bara") evil. This is contrasted to "peace" in the parallel clause. It's "war" or "disaster".

Compare it to Psalm 65:7 and Amos 3:6.

Psalm 65:7: Which stilleth the noise of the seas, the noise of their waves, and the tumult of the people.

Amos 3:6: Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

God created "evil" (wretchedness or calamaties) to be the sure fruit of sin.

 

[DHK]

DHK;
You do err by thinking we are saying when someone does evil that God made him do that.

Ye do err in making a false accusation. Next time you decide to say something like that use a direct quote. I never said anything of the kind.

We in no way are saying that. But you also err in saying God did not say "He created evil". Why do you always change the meaning of Scriptures to fit your preconceived belief.

Again, ye do err not knowing the Scriptures. Why don't you look up the meaning of "evil" instead of blithely quoting an English word that can mean different things. God is not the author of moral evil. You have a narrow-minded definition of the English word "evil" and thus your perspective of God is wrong. I even gave you Scripture to back up what the truth of this verse means. Do you not believe the Word of God? Compare Scripture with Scripture. God does not contradict Himself.

When we say God created evil we are saying God decided what "evil" is, and if man does that, he is doing it at the will of satan not God.

So you play God (what Satan wants to do) and arbitrarily decide what God is saying or deciding without consulting God or the Bible. You are quite amazing!

Evil in order to be evil has to be against God. How can satan say what it is that God does not allow. God only, has the right to say what is good and what is evil.

You are right. God alone has that right. So why are you making those decisions for Him? You have given your opinion but not Scripture--His truth.

You are trying to take away God's power and give it to satan. You do err. peace
Show me where I have done that.
DHK

 

[DHK]

God created "evil" (wretchedness or calamaties) to be the sure fruit of sin.

Your post was good, except for this last comment. A "calamity" (evil) need not to be the fruit of sin. Paul had a thorn in the flesh. This would fall into the same category. It was pain, the opposite of peace. But it wasn't a result of sin.
Jesus calmed a raging sea. Neither the raging sea nor the peaceful sea were a result of sin or the absence thereof.
DHK

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by LeBuick
One CAN’T have good without evil.

DHK:
That is a false statement and makes God an evil God and the author of evil.

Here you said because Scripture was quoted that if so, God was the author of evil. Now you go get another diffinition of evil to suit your belief. I believe when the Bible speaks of evil it is talking about evil against God.

evil:
1 a : morally reprehensible : [SIZE=-1]SINFUL[/SIZE], [SIZE=-1]WICKED[/SIZE] <an evil impulse>

But If I misquoted you I apoligize.

DHK:
Again, ye do err not knowing the Scriptures. Why don't you look up the meaning of "evil" instead of blithely quoting an English word that can mean different things. God is not the author of moral evil. You have a narrow-minded definition of the English word "evil" and thus your perspective of God is wrong. I even gave you Scripture to back up what the truth of this verse means. Do you not believe the Word of God? Compare Scripture with Scripture. God does not contradict Himself.

evil:
1 a : morally reprehensible : [SIZE=-1]SINFUL[/SIZE], [SIZE=-1]WICKED[/SIZE] <an evil impulse>

When we say God created evil we are saying God decided what "evil" is, and if man does that, he is doing it at the will of satan not God.

DHK:
So you play God (what Satan wants to do) and arbitrarily decide what God is saying or deciding without consulting God or the Bible. You are quite amazing!

So when God gave the Commandments he was not the Author of what was Good and what was evil? amazing!
This is a complete undeserving insult and in no way do we play God. You sure are loose with your words. You are the one who is quite amazing!

Evil in order to be evil has to be against God. How can satan say what it is that God does not allow. God only, has the right to say what is good and what is evil.

DHK:
You are right. God alone has that right. So why are you making those decisions for Him? You have given your opinion but not Scripture--His truth.

Here you say I am right then go on to insult me.

Scripture was given you just would not accept it but started with some other definition of "evil" to fit your belief.

No one except God, not you, not me, decided what was good and what was evil. Now if God

decided what was good then He made "good". If he decided what was "evil" then He created what was "evil". Simple so a child could understand. Peace raise: