Was there death already before Adam?

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
God made the creature subject to vanity. What does that mean if it does not mean man can do wrong?
You are quoting from the Book of Romans. That was written how many thousands of years after Adam and Eve were created?

What does quoting from Romans have to do with it? It still is talking about the creation of man? peace

 

[Hope of Glory]

Your post was good, except for this last comment. A "calamity" (evil) need not to be the fruit of sin. Paul had a thorn in the flesh. This would fall into the same category. It was pain, the opposite of peace. But it wasn't a result of sin.
Jesus calmed a raging sea. Neither the raging sea nor the peaceful sea were a result of sin or the absence thereof.
DHK

Poor choice of wording on my part. Should have been a conditional, not absolute.

 

[BobRyan]

Why would a God that is Absolute Perfection create something that was not? That doesn't even make sense

Go to the Bible and let the man-made traditions you have accepted in its place - go.

#1. God says that in that formless and void state "Water covered the surface of the deep" -- it does not say "let there be water".

The formless and void state included water covering the surface of the deep.

#2. In Jeremiah God says he returns the earth to it's formless and void state during the millennium.

Jeremiah 4
23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills moved to and fro.
25I looked, and behold, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.
27For thus says the LORD,
"The whole land shall be a desolation,
Yet I will not execute a complete destruction.
28"For this the earth shall mourn
And the heavens above be dark,
Because I have spoken, I have purposed,
And I will not change My mind, nor will I turn from it."

 

[Hope of Glory]

Brother Bob, might I suggest you put down you Merriam-Webster and exchange it for a Hebrew lexicon?

 

[J. Jump]

Go to the Bible and let the man-made traditions you have accepted in its place - go.

I did. Isaiah 45:18. God said He didn't create the earth that way and that's good enough for me. Why is that not good enough for you?

Are you calling God out onto the carpet and questioning His Integrity. Where were you when He placed the stars. Where were you when He told the waters they could only come so far.

God said He didn't do it like that, so why can't we just accept His Word?

 

[Brother Bob]

Hope you seem to be saying that God created evil also or did I misread you?
If I did misread you, evil and we all know the evil we been talking about. We can run all over the place but we still know we talking about sin. If I misread you can you explain how God made Good without evil becoming present at that very moment when if you don't do what God said is Good then it is evil. peace

evil= adikema ad-eek'-ay-mah from 91; a wrong done:--evil doing, iniquity, matter of wrong.

 

[BobRyan]

Unless Genesis describes how God created the heavens and the earth, and then describes how God filled the land he created.

Rob

True.

Genesis 1 is without a timeline - a chronological sequence. It simply states that God is the "Creator" of all - both heaven and earth.

But in the remaining verses of the chapter starting with the first day when God "creates light" - we see a rotating planet that rotates through evening and morning periods of time - 24 literal hours, "one day".

And in each day we see God "create something" for our world - our solar system. Which includes the making of exactly TWO great lights in the sky on day 4.

Gen 2
4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.[/b]

The idea that they were "created and then destroyed BEFORE THIS" is total foreign to scripture!

This is describing the "origin" the "genesis" of all life on earth - of our entire solar system.

 

[BobRyan]

That's a different question, but the answer is that an imperfect creation (Lucifer) decided to rebel. And in his rebellion he caused a ruin to come on the part that he was put in charge of.
.

The Bible says in Genesis 1 and 2 that MAN was "given charge of all things" on earth.

But you seem content to make stuff up about Lucifer being given charge of Earth prior to the fall of man "reqardless" of what the Bible says.

To each his own.

 

[Eric B]

There are three heavens that are spoken of in the Bible:
1. the atmosphere,
2. the universe,
3. God's abode.

Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
--The firmament spoken of here is the space or atmosphere that was originally placed between to layers of water--the waters or oceans on the earth, and a layer of water that surrounded the earth well above the atmosphere. The atmosphere is referred to as the firmament.

Genesis 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Genesis 1:16-17 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
--Verses 16 and 17 do not refer to the same firmament (i.e., the atmosphere). This firmament (space) refers to the universe. It is when God created the universe. Here is where he created the sun and moon, and he made the stars also. "He set them in the firmament of the heaven." This has not yet been mentioined. He must have created this "heaven" at this time also. It is not referring to the atmosphere but that which is much farther outside of our atmosphere where the sun, moon, and stars are. Thus the universe was created on the fourth day.

Since there is only one creation, and it was done all in six days, I believe that the angels (along with Lucifer) were created within these six days also. It makes no mention of their creation, but they are created beings.
DHK

Oh; I've never heard anyone suggest two firmaments before. I guess that would explain the sun and moon being beyond the atmosphere, but I never thought much about that, except probably to figure it was just from the viewpoint of earth, where it appears they are int he atmosphere.
Also, you have the earth created before the universe! I've never heard of that view before either. What did the earth exist in if the physical universe wasn't created yet?

Still, it was the spiritual heaven we were talking about, so none of this speaks of when that was created.

It is obvious that you both are taking Isaiah 45:7 out of its context. God is not the author of evil. He can bring about a chaotic situation (as he is doing in America) by his own power.

What you said was basically right, except for this last point. Our calamities are not necessarily God's doing, as if we were so righteous in the past that God protected us. There was a lot of sin in our past as well, and whatever you see today is just the fruits of it, especially as it all occurred under a veneer of religiosity back then.

 

[BobRyan]

Paul says he was caught up to the "third heaven".

It was customary to view the FIRST heaven as our sky and the 2nd as the one containing sun moon and stars.

 

[Brother Bob]

Isaiah, chapter 45:7 is talking about worshipping God and not to worship idols which is one of the Commandments so it is talking about evil.

7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Isaiah 40:
8: The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

evil= adikema ad-eek'-ay-mah from 91; a wrong done:--evil doing, iniquity, matter of wrong.

peace

 

[Hope of Glory]

Hope you seem to be saying that God created evil also or did I misread you?
If I did misread you, evil and we all know the evil we been talking about. We can run all over the place but we still know we talking about sin. If I misread you can you explain how God made Good without evil becoming present at that very moment when if you don't do what God said is Good then it is evil. peace

evil= adikema ad-eek'-ay-mah from 91; a wrong done:--evil doing, iniquity, matter of wrong.

Bob, you seem to be using two different words here, unless I'm misunderstanding you. The LXX uses a form of "kakos", not "adikos". Adikos conveys the idea of unjustness and moral wrongness, whereas "kakos" is more along the lines of opposition to "welfare" or "peace".

In the Hebrew, it can be either, by itself. But, in this case, it's comparitive, and it's compared to "peace".

I'm not using this as an argument either pro or con, but I'm pointing out that Isaiah 45:7 is not talking about "evil" in the sense that we usually do in English.

Now, the idea of "morally wrong" (from adikos) can be found in 70 places in the LXX. The first on is in Genesis 16:5, which says, "And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee. " This is also a different word in the Hebrew than the one in Isaiah 45:7. (It's the word "hamas"; just shows you how wrong the terrorist organization really is.)

But, what you have presented is a philosophical arguement. God created everything, and he created it perfectly, but what is "perfect"? He didn't want a bunch of automatons, so he had to give them free will. So, are they perfect or imperfect?

Did he create the morally wrong, or did he create them with the ability to choose wrong? (There is no doubt that he created the "evil" referenced in Isaiah 45:7.) Did the creation of the benchmark also create the "missing" the benchmark?

 

[Brother Bob]

Hope;
If you will read the whole chapter even though evil is in the same line with peace, the whole chapter is about God wanting them to worship and not an idol God. Now to worship an idol God is to break the Commandment "thou shalt not worship no other gods", which is evil in the sense of "sin". Please read the whole chapter and not just the one line. peace.

I think it is talking about evil in the sense of sin. Read the chapter and see if you don't agree.

Also, please give me you honest opinion. First of all do you believe God made Good?

If you do then when God made Good, lets say, honor you Father and Mother. Now being that God made this if you don't do it then it would be evil. Do you agree with this or not and if not please tell me how it could be. Thank you,

I think you just told me you did agree but man have you got a way with words.

 

[DHK]

What you said was basically right, except for this last point. Our calamities are not necessarily God's doing, as if we were so righteous in the past that God protected us. There was a lot of sin in our past as well, and whatever you see today is just the fruits of it, especially as it all occurred under a veneer of religiosity back then.

God is sovereign. He can do as He wishes. It is unrealistic to attribute each and every calamity to sin. This was the disciples mistake:

John 9:2-3 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

The "calamity" (blindness) of this man was not due to sin. Jesus asserted this fact. It was that God's glory might be made manifest.

And so it is with many of the calamities in this world. God chooses to demonstrate his might and power through many natural disasters such as earthquakes, floods, tsunamis, volcanos, etc. I think we are often too self-righteous, and too quick to jump to some other conclusion such as:
God is judging them because of Aids, or homosexuality, or because of the rate of abortions, or because they are a Muslim nation, etc.
We don't know the mind of God.
Often God demonstrates his power simply to show forth his glory.
Calamities are not always the result of sin.

Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Hope;
If you will read the whole chapter even though evil is in the same line with peace, the whole chapter is about God wanting them to worship and not an idol God. Now to worship an idol God is to break the Commandment "thou shalt not worship no other gods", which is evil in the sense of "sin". Please read the whole chapter and not just the one line. peace.

Read again the chapter. It centers around an unsaved king, Cyrus. God is going to use this unsaved king in the deliverance of his chosen people, Israel. He will demonstrate His power, and even his eternal Godhead through this king. There is a bit of a dialogue where the unbelieving Jews seem to be arguing with God about the length of their captivity. This is not a chapter of worship as you think. It is more of a chapter of judgement than anything else. Included in that judgement is a delcaration of Jehovah's glory, power, and sovereignty.
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

Is 45 (NASB)
7The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.

Adam Clark on Isaiah 45

I make peace, and create evil
Evil is here evidently put for war and its attendant miseries. I will procure peace for the Israelites, and destroy Babylon by war. I form light, and create darkness. Now, as darkness is only the privation of light, so the evil of war is the privation of peace.

http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=isa&chapter=045

John Gill –

I make peace, and create evil;
peace between God and men is made by Christ, who is God over all; spiritual peace of conscience comes from God, through Christ, by the Spirit; eternal glory and happiness is of God, which saints enter into at death; peace among the saints themselves here, and with the men of the world; peace in churches, and in the world, God is the author of, even of all prosperity of every kind, which this word includes: "evil" is also from him; not the evil of sin; this is not to be found among the creatures God made; this is of men, though suffered by the Lord, and overruled by him for good: but the evil of punishment for sin, God's sore judgments, famine, pestilence, evil beasts, and the sword, or war, which latter may more especially be intended, as it is opposed to peace; this usually is the effect of sin; may be sometimes lawfully engaged in; whether on a good or bad foundation is permitted by God; moreover, all afflictions, adversities, and calamities, come under this name, and are of God; see (Job 2:10) (Amos 3:6) : I the Lord do all these things;
http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=isa&chapter=045&verse=007

Matthew Henry on Isaiah 45

That he is Lord of all, and there is nothing done without him (Isaiah 45:7): I form the light, which is grateful and pleasing, and I create darkness, which is grievous and unpleasing. I make peace (put here for all good) and I create evil, not the evil of sin (God is not the author of that), but the evil of punishment. I the Lord order, and direct, and do all these things.
http://www.studylight.org/com/mhc-com/view.cgi?book=isa&chapter=045

 

[BobRyan]

The LXX uses a form of "kakos", not "adikos". Adikos conveys the idea of unjustness and moral wrongness, whereas "kakos" is more along the lines of opposition to "welfare" or "peace".

In the Hebrew, it can be either, by itself. But, in this case, it's comparitive, and it's compared to "peace".

I'm not using this as an argument either pro or con, but I'm pointing out that Isaiah 45:7 is not talking about "evil" in the sense that we usually do in English.

Good point

 

[Eric B]

God is sovereign. He can do as He wishes. It is unrealistic to attribute each and every calamity to sin. This was the disciples mistake:

John 9:2-3 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

The "calamity" (blindness) of this man was not due to sin. Jesus asserted this fact. It was that God's glory might be made manifest.

And so it is with many of the calamities in this world. God chooses to demonstrate his might and power through many natural disasters such as earthquakes, floods, tsunamis, volcanos, etc. I think we are often too self-righteous, and too quick to jump to some other conclusion such as:
God is judging them because of Aids, or homosexuality, or because of the rate of abortions, or because they are a Muslim nation, etc.
We don't know the mind of God.
Often God demonstrates his power simply to show forth his glory.
Calamities are not always the result of sin.

Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
DHK

OK. But I got the impression you were making that assumption with America because of those sins.
But even speculating that God sends all of these things not as punishment of sin, but "just to show His glory" can go beyind what we know for sure, and lead to other problems, like coldness (not sympathizing with pain because we believe God is "doing" all of this "for good". I simply attribute most of this to just being in a fallen world. The scripture (I create evil (calamity), you were right on, as I said, but I believe it (as well as Rom.9) reflected mostly God's OT dealings with Israel and the surrounding nations. In the age of grace now, God can still do those things, but He is more concerned with spiritually changing people, (through conviction and our witness, of course) than inflicting pain (when life in a fallen world will do that enough without special acts of God).

 

[Brother Bob]

Read again the chapter. It centers around an unsaved king, Cyrus. God is going to use this unsaved king in the deliverance of his chosen people, Israel. He will demonstrate His power, and even his eternal Godhead through this king. There is a bit of a dialogue where the unbelieving Jews seem to be arguing with God about the length of their captivity. This is not a chapter of worship as you think. It is more of a chapter of judgement than anything else. Included in that judgement is a delcaration of Jehovah's glory, power, and sovereignty

He may be using Cyrus, but only to prove He is the God of Israel, that is the small part of this chapter. He is showing he is the one and true God and those who worship idols, which is evil.

4: For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

5: I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

17: But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

18: For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

20: Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.

21: Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

22: Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23: I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

24: Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

25: In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Even if its what you say "the unbelieving Jews" which unbelief is enough to take you to hell!


Here is almost all of the Chapter and it is talking about God being the only God and those who worship idols.

 

[Brother Bob]

calamity:
ra` rah from 7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):-- adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease(-ure), distress, evil((- favouredness), man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief(-vous), harm, heavy, hurt(-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief(-vous), misery, naught(-ty), noisome, + not please, sad(-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked(-ly, -ness, one), worse(-st), wretchedness, wrong. (Incl. feminine raaah; as adjective or noun.).

also

Matthew Henry on Isaiah 45
but the evil of punishment. (Did God consider His punishment "evil".)

Adam Clark on Isaiah 45
(There is nothing in the Chapter about destroying Babylon that I read)

John Gill
I make peace, and create evil;
peace between God and men is made by Christ, who is God over all; spiritual peace of conscience comes from God, through Christ, by the Spirit; eternal glory and happiness is of God, which saints enter into at death (sin is why we didn't have peace with God, if you are going to compare it with peace then use why we didn't have peace with God).

I take it they read the same Chapter that we are reading or do they have some other source?

There is no meaning for the word kakos in Hebrew, only in Greek and here is the meanings take your pick.

. kakos kak-os' apparently a primary word; worthless (intrinsically, such; whereas 4190 properly refers to effects), i.e. (subjectively) depraved, or (objectively) injurious:--bad, evil, harm, ill, noisome, wicked.
2560. kakos kak-oce' from 2556; badly (physically or morally):--amiss, diseased, evil, grievously, miserably, sick, sore.

I thought the OT was written in Hebrew and not Greek and if it was written in Hebrew then it could of been:

'aven aw-ven' from an unused root perhaps meaning properly, to pant (hence, to exert oneself, usually in vain; to come to naught); strictly nothingness; also trouble. vanity, wickedness; specifically an idol:--affliction, evil, false, idol, iniquity, mischief, mourners(-ing), naught, sorrow, unjust, unrighteous, vain ,vanity, wicked(-ness). What you think?

The chapter is talking about The Lord of Lords and the King of Kings and not calamity. amen,