Water and Spirit

[JonC]

This is the OP.

Thousand Hills made an outstanding reply in post #2
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2223804&postcount=2

Darrell agreed.

But more or less since that time the discussion has centered around kyredneck's obsession with posts like:

Forget about "being born of water and of the Spirit," or of being "born again," or even "born anew," as long as one is "born from above" then that is what is important. And the thread has basically been hijacked to make sure that we all have been regenerated or born from above.
The thread has left its basic premise:

What does it mean to be born of water and the Spirit?

To substantiate what Thousand Hills said, I offer what Peter said:...
Or, that is what Peter is teaching.

I agree with what Peter is teaching, but I disagree that this is the same thing Jesus is telling Nicodemus in John 3 (although they are both pointing to Christ and the gospel message - John 3 is specifically pointing to the work that God is doing in salvation - not necessarily the mode through which this is communicated)). Peter is speaking of the work of Christ and this message of the New Covenant (the gospel message). Jesus is explaining to Nicodemus the new birth.

 

[kyredneck]

...Back to the OP, I agree with Bro Joseph. It is most likely that the passage in Jn 3 is referencing Ezekiel...

I do too, but in no way does that preclude Jn 3:8 from being a statement of fact for individuals through all ages. A distinction must be drawn between the individual and the corporate here. As I pointed out, Ezek 36 is addressing the corporate, i.e., the house of Israel, My people Israel. All individuals within this corporate ‘house of Israel’ have the heavenly Jerusalem as their mother. They’re real Jews, Jews inwardly.

25 And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep mine ordinances, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
29 And I will save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the grain, and will multiply it, and lay no famine upon you. Ezek 36

Notice what they’re being ‘saved’ or delivered from here, their vain manner of life. That’s what belief and obedience to the gospel saves us from.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself up for it;
26 that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it by the washing of water with the word,
27 that he might present the church to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph 5

Again, this is corporate (the church), and the preaching of the gospel cleanses it.

3 For we also once were foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
4 But when the kindness of God our Saviour, and his love toward man, appeared,
5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 which he poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour; Titus 3

Again, the corporate is being saved from their former vain manner of life by this washing of regeneration, the regeneration being the same as:

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Mt 19

…and the same as:

14 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called,
18 Saith the Lord, who maketh these things known from of old. Acts 15

I think the 1 Peter support for Jesus' use of "born of water" being the gospel message is flawed.

Not necessarily, not if you view it corporately:

14 as children of obedience, not fashioning yourselves according to your former lusts in the time of your ignorance:
15 but like as he who called you is holy, be ye yourselves also holy in all manner of living;
16 because it is written, Ye shall be holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on him as Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to each man`s work, pass the time of your sojourning in fear:
18 knowing that ye were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from your vain manner of life handed down from your fathers;
19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb without spot, even the blood of Christ:
20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,
21 who through him are believers in God, that raised him from the dead, and gave him glory; so that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth unto unfeigned love of the brethren, love one another from the heart fervently:
23 having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth. 1 Pet 1

They, the church, the house of Israel, the house of David, were begotten again, built again, regenerated, delivered from their former ways, by the preaching of the gospel. But you are correct that it is not in reference to the individual’s heavenly birth.

 

[percho]

23 having been begotten again, ( unto a lively hope, verse 3) not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, (by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,) verse 3 [Proof of being so.] Acts 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, Also. 2 Tim 1:10 but has been made manifest now by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who has annulled death, and brought to light life and incorruptibility by the glad tidings; the gospel ) through the word of God, which liveth and abideth. 1 Pet 1

Question. Is that lively hope of being begotten, the same hope spoken of in Romans 8:23-25?

Is the redemption of the body the new birth by which one, born of water, will enter and thus inherit the kingdom of God which is accomplished by the spirit indwelling the body, it's temple? See Romans 8:11, 1 Cor 6:19,20 1 Cor 15:50 Eph 1:13,14

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

 

[kyredneck]

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God! Jn 3

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through a needle`s eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 And when the disciples heard it, they were astonished exceedingly, saying, Who then can be saved? Mt 19

Notice the connection between ‘entering the kingdom of God’ and ‘saved’ here?

I reiterate from post #37:

“I waffle with Jn 3:5. It could mean ‘born of water even the Spirit’. But v. 3:5 differs from v. 3:3 in that the latter deals with the ability to see and the other with the ability to enter. Water could also signify either water baptism, or, the gospel (word) from the standpoint of a profession of faith (Edersheim's view) in order to become a partaker of the benefits of the New Covenant, i.e., entering into the kingdom. (Conforming to the type of those redeemed from Egypt had to believe the gospel and act in order to enter into His rest)”

…and post #87:

“….I lean toward the equation being: Profession plus the heavenly birth equals saved.”

I think that is precisely the order given in Jn 1:12,13.

 

[JonC]

I do too, but in no way does that preclude Jn 3:8 from being a statement of fact for individuals through all ages. A distinction must be drawn between the individual and the corporate here. As I pointed out, Ezek 36 is addressing the corporate, i.e., the house of Israel, My people Israel. All individuals within this corporate ‘house of Israel’ have the heavenly Jerusalem as their mother. They’re real Jews, Jews inwardly.



25 And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep mine ordinances, and do them.

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

29 And I will save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the grain, and will multiply it, and lay no famine upon you. Ezek 36



Notice what they’re being ‘saved’ or delivered from here, their vain manner of life. That’s what belief and obedience to the gospel saves us from.



25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself up for it;

26 that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it by the washing of water with the word,

27 that he might present the church to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph 5



Again, this is corporate (the church), and the preaching of the gospel cleanses it.



3 For we also once were foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.

4 But when the kindness of God our Saviour, and his love toward man, appeared,

5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

6 which he poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour; Titus 3



Again, the corporate is being saved from their former vain manner of life by this washing of regeneration, the regeneration being the same as:



28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Mt 19



…and the same as:



14 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called,

18 Saith the Lord, who maketh these things known from of old. Acts 15









Not necessarily, not if you view it corporately:



14 as children of obedience, not fashioning yourselves according to your former lusts in the time of your ignorance:

15 but like as he who called you is holy, be ye yourselves also holy in all manner of living;

16 because it is written, Ye shall be holy; for I am holy.

17 And if ye call on him as Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to each man`s work, pass the time of your sojourning in fear:

18 knowing that ye were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from your vain manner of life handed down from your fathers;

19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb without spot, even the blood of Christ:

20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,

21 who through him are believers in God, that raised him from the dead, and gave him glory; so that your faith and hope might be in God.

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth unto unfeigned love of the brethren, love one another from the heart fervently:

23 having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth. 1 Pet 1



They, the church, the house of Israel, the house of David, were begotten again, built again, regenerated, delivered from their former ways, by the preaching of the gospel. But you are correct that it is not in reference to the individual’s heavenly birth.

In many aspects your view reminds me of NT Wright's framework for his "new perspective." I will say that I do not hold your view that it is corporate, but I also will reconsider my view and evaluate with Scripture and your insight into the passages. So right now I do not agree it is corporate in Jn3, but I will reconsider the issue. That's all I can do.

 

[kyredneck]

Oh no JonC, Jn 3 is individual!:

3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;`
5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3

I was only trying to make the connection with 'the washing' that the gospel has done for the church and how the [corporate] regeneration/rebuilding has come about. I believe the washing and cleansing of Ezek 36 is direct reference to the preaching of the gospel.

 

[DHK]

I agree with what Peter is teaching, but I disagree that this is the same thing Jesus is telling Nicodemus in John 3 (although they are both pointing to Christ and the gospel message - John 3 is specifically pointing to the work that God is doing in salvation - not necessarily the mode through which this is communicated)). Peter is speaking of the work of Christ and this message of the New Covenant (the gospel message). Jesus is explaining to Nicodemus the new birth.

Much of the thread has relied heavily on the passage in Ezekiel, and many believe as you say, that this passage is more about "the work that God is doing in salvation," which is a typical Calvinistic view. It is doubtful that that view even existed before Calvin came along.

Jesus was having a simple conversation with Nicodemus. To understand the passage one must get inside the head of Nicodemus. What was he thinking? And what was Christ trying to communicate to him so that he would understand. I don't believe it was Calvinism.

Neither do I believe the correct interpretation is water even the Spirit. That is simply a cop-out for saying "I don't know what "water" refers to.

Water is symbolic? But of what? Someone but forth some ideas that I read on the first page. Some were viable and some obviously not, like baptism which leads to heresy. Many suggest that the water referred to the water "of the flesh" or the mother's water, but I doubt that Nicodemus would have been thinking about amniotic fluid.

What is the most common purpose for water? Water is used for cleansing or washing. Not far from where Jesus and Nicodemus were standing was the Temple. Probably within viewing distance they could see many going through the many purifications that the Jewish rituals had in place. There was the laver of washing in particular, and then others that had been added by the rabbis throughout the centuries according to their traditions. Water purified a person. It cleansed a person.

Perhaps, when Jesus said water, if any passage would come to Nicodemus mind it would be Psalm 119:9, part of a passage often sung during special festivals.
Psa 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
--How does a young man cleanse his way? By obeying the Word.

Later Jesus would say:
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
--It is the Word of God that cleanses.

Remember that in John 3:5
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
--There are two and only two elements by which a man must be born again.
One is water and the other is the Spirit, the Holy Spirit. I believe we all can agree on the latter.
But here in John 15:3 Jesus is indicating that it is the Word of God that cleanses us; that the Word, like water, is a cleansing agent. Therefore water is symbolic of the Word.

Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
--James uses the word "begat" from begotten" or birth, meaning that we are born or born again by the Word of Truth. The Word is used in regeneration. It is essential in this process.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
--Peter says it very clearly.
One is born again by the Word of God, the gospel.
There is an order in salvation. I believe faith must be first. The gospel is second. And then regeneration and salvation follow. I also believe that regeneration and salvation are inseparable--they happen simultaneously.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The Word of God must be heard, so in a sense one could put that first. But it is faith in the promises of that Word, or faith in Christ (the Christ of the gospel) that saves.

Jesus did not come to Nicodemus to split hairs about regeneration and salvation. Nicodemus needed to born again/saved. He needed to be born into the family of God. He already was in the family of devil. No doubt he had heard the harsh condemnation of Jesus:

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
--He needed a different family, a different Father, another birth, a spiritual birth. And that could only be accomplished through the Word and through the Spirit. They are the two agents by which a person is born again. Both are essential to a man's salvation. One cannot be born again/saved without either one.

Salvation is all of God. It is not of man.
God is the author from beginning to the end.
There is the objection that faith is a work. Faith is not a work.
Paul puts that objection to rest in Romans 4:1-5, using Abraham as an example.

There are still other scriptures that I could use. Thousand Hills provided more in his post on page one. But this is the view that I hold.

 

[kyredneck]

...Remember that in John 3:5
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
--There are two and only two elements by which a man must be born again....

And this is where your reading comprehension is very poor. The verse is NOT telling how to be 'born again', it's telling how one may enter the kingdom of God. The 3rd verse clearly makes the distinction between the two.

 

[JonC]

Oh no JonC, Jn 3 is individual!:



3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;`

5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;

8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3



I was only trying to make the connection with 'the washing' that the gospel has done for the church and how the [corporate] regeneration/rebuilding has come about. I believe the washing and cleansing of Ezek 36 is direct reference to the preaching of the gospel.

[emoji108]sorry. I misunderstood.

 

[kyredneck]

....a typical Calvinistic view. It is doubtful that that view even existed before Calvin came along. ...

So what are you trying to do? Derail the thread and get it tossed in the Cal/Arm Forum?

 

[JonC]

So what are you trying to do? Derail the thread and get it tossed in the Cal/Arm Forum?

This is where he ceases legitimate interaction with the topic. Having no biblical objection, apparently this is merely a smokescreen It is indeed off topic.

 

[kyredneck]

I've got things to go do, but I've really enjoyed this thread, it's caused me to rehearse on some things. Notice this passage concerning the [corporate] regeneration:

14 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called,
18 Saith the Lord, who maketh these things known from of old. Acts 15

Ezek 36-37 and many other passages from the prophets are speaking of the very same regeneration.

I believe the cleansing with water in Ezek 36 is in reference to the preaching of the gospel of the kingdom and have no problem connecting Jn 3:5 with Ezek 36 through that word water.

 

[DHK]

So what are you trying to do? Derail the thread and get it tossed in the Cal/Arm Forum?

Don't be so paranoid. I simply gave my opinion.

 

[DHK]

I've got things to go do, but I've really enjoyed this thread, it's caused me to rehearse on some things. Notice this passage concerning the [corporate] regeneration:

14 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called,
18 Saith the Lord, who maketh these things known from of old. Acts 15

Ezek 36-37 and many other passages from the prophets are speaking of the very same regeneration.

I believe the cleansing with water in Ezek 36 is in reference to the preaching of the gospel of the kingdom and have no problem connecting Jn 3:5 with Ezek 36 through that word water.

The question is not so much the relevance of Ezekiel 36 today, but rather the relevance then to both Jesus and Nicodemus.
Jesus never referred to it.
Would Nicodemus have thought of it in relation to what Jesus was saying.
IMO, I don't think so. Therefore it becomes irrelevant in the exposition of the passage.
The basic question of the OP is, in John 3:5 what does "to be born of the water and of the Spirit mean"?
Why would Nicodemus think of Ezekiel 36 if Jesus said you must be born of "water"? I don't think he would? That is my opinion.

I trust you will take it as valid as any other opinion on the board even if you disagree.

 

[kyredneck]

The odd thing is that I lean in agreement with you that water is in reference to the gospel from the standpoint of profession of faith. But that has nothing to do with being born from above.

 

[JonC]

The question is not so much the relevance of Ezekiel 36 today, but rather the relevance then to both Jesus and Nicodemus.

Jesus never referred to it.

Would Nicodemus have thought of it in relation to what Jesus was saying.

IMO, I don't think so. Therefore it becomes irrelevant in the exposition of the passage.

The basic question of the OP is, in John 3:5 what does "to be born of the water and of the Spirit mean"?

Why would Nicodemus think of Ezekiel 36 if Jesus said you must be born of "water"? I don't think he would? That is my opinion.



I trust you will take it as valid as any other opinion on the board even if you disagree.

That is the difference. I see Jesus making this reference throughout the NT. I believe Nicodemus would have recognized the reference (not only from Ezekiel). I think we can each benefit from dialogue even if we never come to an agreement (it keeps us in the Scripture).

 

[DHK]

The odd thing is that I lean in agreement with you that water is in reference to the gospel from the standpoint of profession of faith. But that has nothing to do with being born from above.

When one is born from above the Lord takes the individual and puts him into His family. He is actually adopted as His Son. Adoption is one benefit. He is also born. He is taken out of Satan's family and born into God's family, a miracle that only God can do. Every person is born into Satan's family. Jesus said "your father is the devil." To be a child of God you must be born again. It is a work of God.
There are various pictures and illustrations given in the OT.
But IMO, water refers to cleansing. Jesus referred directly to the act of the Word as cleansing. So does Psalm 119:9 in the same way. A straight forward statement by Peter saying that one is born again by the Word pretty much seals the deal. God uses the Holy Spirit through His Word to bring a person into His family.

 

[percho]

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God! Jn 3

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through a needle`s eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 And when the disciples heard it, they were astonished exceedingly, saying, Who then can be saved? Mt 19

Notice the connection between ‘entering the kingdom of God’ and ‘saved’ here?

I reiterate from post #37:

“I waffle with Jn 3:5. It could mean ‘born of water even the Spirit’. But v. 3:5 differs from v. 3:3 in that the latter deals with the ability to see and the other with the ability to enter. Water could also signify either water baptism, or, the gospel (word) from the standpoint of a profession of faith (Edersheim's view) in order to become a partaker of the benefits of the New Covenant, i.e., entering into the kingdom. (Conforming to the type of those redeemed from Egypt had to believe the gospel and act in order to enter into His rest)”

…and post #87:

“….I lean toward the equation being: Profession plus the heavenly birth equals saved.”

I think that is precisely the order given in Jn 1:12,13.

I do notice the connection and ask is being saved and entering the kingdom of God connected also to verse 16 where the question is asked concerning, "having eternal life"? Now the question as asked in the same story in the books of Mark and Luke as, "inherit eternal life."

Is being saved, entering the kingdom, having eternal life equated to inheriting eternal life?

Now consider Titus 3:6,7 where those who have had the Holy Spirit abundantly poured upon them, are justified by grace, yet are still even then, heirs according to the hope of eternal life, not yet inheritors.

Again I will ask. Is this, "hope," the same hope of Romans 8:24,25 which is relative to the redemption of the body verse 23?

 

[percho]

I believe Jesus speaks of water in verse 5 because of what Nick asked concerning entering again the womb of our mother.

I asked several questions concerning the Greek hoping the Greek gurus would get involved. I know, no Greek but can Google, That probably makes me less than a moron but it is my limit. Sorry.

Per my Googling V5 says, anyone being born out of water and of spirit.

YOU have already come out of water born from your mother's womb you also must be born out of spirit. See verse 6, the Greek. Had to edit that line for I put a, "the," there that I do not believe should be there.

The having been born out of the flesh, flesh is = water birth
and the having been born out of spirit, spirit is.

No you should be marveling that I said to you, it is binding you be born anew.

I believe Jesus is the only one born of woman, who has been baptized with the baptism, of which water baptism pictures, regeneration and that we have to follow him in the baptism of which he was baptized with, our regeneration.

 

[JonC]

I believe Jesus speaks of water in verse 5 because of what Nick asked concerning entering again the womb of our mother.

I asked several questions concerning the Greek hoping the Greek gurus would get involved. I know, no Greek but can Google, That probably makes me less than a moron but it is my limit. Sorry.

Per my Googling V5 says, anyone being born out of water and of spirit.

YOU have already come out of water born from your mother's womb you also must be born out of spirit. See verse 6, the Greek. Had to edit that line for I put a, "the," there that I do not believe should be there.

The having been born out of the flesh, flesh is = water birth
and the having been born out of spirit, spirit is.

No you should be marveling that I said to you, it is binding you be born anew.

I believe Jesus is the only one born of woman, who has been baptized with the baptism, of which water baptism pictures, regeneration and that we have to follow him in the baptism of which he was baptized with, our regeneration.

The problem with associating water with a mothers womb is that this is foreign to first century Judaism. Well I disagree a better argument is flash from flash.

"Out of", "and" etc are not in the Greek. We add those words to make sense in English. Unfortunately interpretive decisions must be made with any translation. But I believe the verse points to water and Spirit being one birth.