Does Greektim and others agree with this? Is this the general agreement/conclusion of the Jn 3:5/Ezek 36 group?
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Water and Spirit
- Thread starter JonC
- Start date
Does Greektim and others agree with this? Is this the general agreement/conclusion of the Jn 3:5/Ezek 36 group?
:wavey: I don't know, but hopefully they'll chime in.
Now I am not so sure that I understand your position kyredneck. Are you saying that people in the OT were "born from above," "of water and Spirit," just as we are today?
"Born from above", yes, absolutely.
Post #25:
OT folk were no better than NT folk, it behooved them to born from above just as it does us:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=74804
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We disagree here. But you are right that OT folk were no better than NT folk. The difference is the Kingdom and the New Covenant. Ezekiel 36 is a good summery.
Your reasoning with the Jn 3 discourse totally escapes me. The difference is there was no 'Kingdom and New Covenant' for them to enter into, but that has nothing to do with their heavenly birth.
26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. Gal 4
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now.
3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah
4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon as among them that know me: Behold, Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia: This one was born there.
5 Yea, of Zion it shall be said, This one and that one was born in her; And the Most High himself will establish her.
6 Jehovah will count, when he writeth up the peoples, This one was born there. Selah Ps 87
Which Zion is this in Ps 87 JonC? Earthly or heavenly?
Folks, note that Galatians 4:29 does not say OT folks were "born of the Spirit." Here is a literal translation of the text, "But even as then, the one being generated according to the flesh persecuted the one according to the Spirit, thus also now. OT saints who gained approval through faith were "according to the Spirit" but not born of the Spirit.
As far as Psalm 87, it pictures God ingathering those who obtained approval through faith as native citizens of the City of God. Thus this event was prophecy, foretelling entry into the City of God.
Bottom line, there is no support whatsoever for OT saints being born anew before Christ died. None, zip, nada.
As far as Psalm 87, it pictures God ingathering those who obtained approval through faith as native citizens of the City of God. Thus this event was prophecy, foretelling entry into the City of God.
Bottom line, there is no support whatsoever for OT saints being born anew before Christ died. None, zip, nada.
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You'd never use the literal rendering 'born from above', would you? That makes man totally passive in the heavenly birth, and you'll never accept the truth of that, so you must use 'born anew'.
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1
Man totally passive in the heavenly birth. He had no more say so in his Spiritual birth than he did his physical birth. None, zip, nada.
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I think that our presuppositions are the cause. I do not understand the reasoning that has OT people "born of the spirit" when this is exactly what the OT looks towards being fulfilled in the future as it looks forward to the New Covenant. OT people were "reckoned" as righteous (and here this may be a covenant rather than moral righteousness) based on faith (and it's object...Christ). But no, they were not born of the spirit. This is, IMHO, evident as the entire OT looks to the time to come when God will do these things.
You ever put any thought into Christ's words, "The hour cometh and now is"? Some say, "Already but not yet".
You ever thought about why it's called a new covenant? "In that he saith, A new covenant he hath made the first old." [Heb 8:13]
You ever thought about "I, the LORD, change not" and 'Jesus Christ the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever', and a 'new' covenant?.
You ever thought about what remained after the removal of the old covenant? "And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain." Heb 12:12. That which remained was 'new' simply because it had not been revealed before.
The new covenant is the everlasting covenant revealed. It's the way God has always worked.
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One problem that I have with your interpretation of “born from above” is what I would consider damage to the Old Testament. Rather than pointing to something “new” or a future where God will do something that He hasn’t done, your position seems to have God merely revealing what He has done.
Now, I do agree that there is a covenant that is central to God’s plan. It is not the Old Covenant, but His covenant with Abraham. I think Paul bears this out very well in his epistles.
The Kingdom is already and not yet. But not because it had a similar form in the OT and just needed to be revealed. It is because "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us," and "the Light has come into the world." This is when the Kingdom on earth begins....it is inaugurated, but not yet here in fullness. But prior to the New Covenant people were not "born from above." All OT passages speak of this as something yet to come.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
Certainly, from a redemptive historical standpoint, the ministry of the Spirit climaxes at the inauguration of the new covenant. As JonC has pointed out, the prophets such as Jeremiah and Ezekiel and Joel make this emphasis. So while systematic theology might seek to give an ordo salutis for the OT saints which includes regeneration, I don't think I can from a biblical theological perspective b/c the trajectory of revelation moves to a more active role for the Holy Spirit as the progress of redemption occurs. I'm not willing to say that those saints weren't regenerated by the Spirit. But I am willing to say that the OT puts that ministry on an eschatological path that finds its culmination at the new covenant
JonC, Greektim, thanks for the discussion. Question for you:
10 and I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited, and the waste places shall be builded;
12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of children.
17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their way and by their doings: their way before me was as the uncleanness of a woman in her impurity.
21 But I had regard for my holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations, whither they went.
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: I do not this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for my holy name, which ye have profaned among the nations, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which hath been profaned among the nations, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the nations shall know that I am Jehovah, saith the Lord Jehovah, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep mine ordinances, and do them Ezek 36
How is it that 'non-Jews' can be called 'the house of Israel', or, 'my people Israel'?
10 and I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited, and the waste places shall be builded;
12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of children.
17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their way and by their doings: their way before me was as the uncleanness of a woman in her impurity.
21 But I had regard for my holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations, whither they went.
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: I do not this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for my holy name, which ye have profaned among the nations, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which hath been profaned among the nations, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the nations shall know that I am Jehovah, saith the Lord Jehovah, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep mine ordinances, and do them Ezek 36
How is it that 'non-Jews' can be called 'the house of Israel', or, 'my people Israel'?
So what was the 'cut-off point' where saints began to be born from above? It evidently was already in effect at the time of this dialog between Christ and Nicodemus.
13 who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten. Jn 1 YLT
7 ..... It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3 YLT
Is the birth of Jn 1 the same as the birth of Jn 3?
7 ..... It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3 YLT
Is the birth of Jn 1 the same as the birth of Jn 3?
Not all Israel is Israel. The Israel in question are (as revealed in the NT) son's of Abraham. I believe the mistake that many make is looking to the Old Covenant and the Law rather than the Abrahamic Covenant.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
Redemptive-historically, Jesus embodied Israel, redefined Israel around himself (thus chose 12 disciples), and fulfilled Israel's mission to bless the nations as Israel's idealic Israelite, as Israel's king who would bless the nations (Ps 72). Since we are joined to Christ, and entrance into the body of Christ and the people of God is through Jesus not Jewish ethnic identity b/c of the New Covenant, then we are the redefined Israel of God.
Absolutely agree. Now look at the text I've been quoting from Gal 4:
26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now. Gal 4
I believe the mistake many make is not making the connection between 'born from above' in Jn 3, 'Jerusalem above our mother' in Gal 4, Zion the city of God in Ps 87, the seed of the Woman of Gen 3:15 AND Rev 12.
'Born from above' presents a magnificent thread to follow from Genesis to Revelation.
1) Born anew is a literal translation. If Nicodemus had thought the word meant born from above, then he would not have asked if a person could reenter their mother's womb.
2) Man is totally passive in being spiritually born anew. You seek to create conflict where none exists. God alone either puts a person in Christ or not, we have no say in the matter!
Thus your response is simply a change of subject.
Bottom line, there is no actual support anywhere in scripture for the mistaken idea that OT saints were spiritually born anew before Christ died. None, zip, nada.
Now there's a truth pregnant with all manner of types and allegories to make the heart of the believer marvel at His word.
You articulate that well. Thank you.
Consider these passages:
1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah. Isa 54
26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband. Gal 4
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2
26 even the mystery which hath been hid for ages and generations: but now hath it been manifested to his saints,
27 to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Col 1
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2
....and try to make the connection to Jn 3:8
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3
That fact alone is how God had more people outside the Mosaic Covenant than were included in it.
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