That is exactly the issue.
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Water and Spirit
- Thread starter JonC
- Start date
That is exactly the issue.
This is where we disagree. I believe the passage is about the new birth (about God cleansing us of our sin and putting within us a new spirit. I think that this would also be the significance to Nicodemus.
I am not saying water represents the Word of God. I am saying that being "born of water and spirit" represents God cleansing us and putting a new spirit in us (Ezekiel 36) and that this is further explained in Jesus' explanation of how it is with those born of the Spirit (Ezekiel 37). The contrast is not between being born of water and being born of Spirit. The contrast is that which is of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. But the rebirth is both a forgiveness of sins and a new spirit. Then verses 10 forward expounds on Nicodemus' question (the "how can these things be"). I view this passage as connected to the OT.
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19 And the Lord spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
2 This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke:
3 And ye shall give her unto Eleazar the priest, that he may bring her forth without the camp, and one shall slay her before his face:
4 And Eleazar the priest shall take of her blood with his finger, and sprinkle of her blood directly before the tabernacle of the congregation seven times:
5 And one shall burn the heifer in his sight; her skin, and her flesh, and her blood, with her dung, shall he burn:
6 And the priest shall take cedar wood, and hyssop, and scarlet, and cast it into the midst of the burning of the heifer.
7 Then the priest shall wash his clothes, and he shall bathe his flesh in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp, and the priest shall be unclean until the even.
8 And he that burneth her shall wash his clothes in water, and bathe his flesh in water, and shall be unclean until the even.
9 And a man that is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer, and lay them up without the camp in a clean place, and it shall be kept for the congregation of the children of Israel for a water of separation: it is a purification for sin.10 And he that gathereth the ashes of the heifer shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: and it shall be unto the children of Israel, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among them, for a statute for ever.
17 And for an unclean person they shall take of the ashes of the burnt heifer of purification for sin, and running water shall be put thereto in a vessel:
18 And a clean person shall take hyssop, and dip it in the water, and sprinkle it upon the tent, and upon all the vessels, and upon the persons that were there, and upon him that touched a bone, or one slain, or one dead, or a grave:
19 And the clean person shall sprinkle upon the unclean on the third day, and on the seventh day: and on the seventh day he shall purify himself, and wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and shall be clean at even.
20 But the man that shall be unclean, and shall not purify himself, that soul shall be cut off from among the congregation, because he hath defiled the sanctuary of the Lord: the water of separation hath not been sprinkled upon him; he is unclean.
21 And it shall be a perpetual statute unto them, that he that sprinkleth the water of separation shall wash his clothes; and he that toucheth the water of separation shall be unclean until even.
And Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the Lord hath said will we do.
4 And Moses wrote all the words of the Lord, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.
5 And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the Lord.
6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.
8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words
ezk36;
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
jn3
heb9;
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Nicodemus was a Pharisee who believed the truth of resurrection. You're right about the cleansing oart, but it is not limited to our inner man.The body must be cleansed also.
Jesus said later "I Am the resurrection and the Life"
He also raised Lazarus in this gospel.
And Paul makes clear that resurrection is essential to inherit the Kingdom of God
Wow, all kinds of opinions on Christ's words to Nicodemus. Anybody agree that these two are the same?:
3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;`
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; Jn 3 YLT
26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. Gal 4
Anybody agree that Christ is telling Nicodemus that 'it behoveth you to be a child of promise' to be able to see or to enter into the kingdom?
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now. Gal 4
3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;`
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; Jn 3 YLT
26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. Gal 4
Anybody agree that Christ is telling Nicodemus that 'it behoveth you to be a child of promise' to be able to see or to enter into the kingdom?
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now. Gal 4
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:thumbsup: I think that it is still God's cleansing and new life, but I did not think about that part of the issue at all. Thank you for bringing it up.
I know it can be translated "form above" as well. I don't know that this fits with Nicodemus' reply, but perhaps it does.
Well, it's anothen:
from above, from a higher place
of things which come from heaven or God
from the first, from the beginning, from the very first
anew, over again
and it always has the meaning 'above' when used by John:
3 Jesus answered and said to him, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;' (YLT)
7 'Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; (YLT)
31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly , and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. Jn 3
11 Jesus answered , Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout . Jn 19
Likewise with James:
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Ja 1
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure , then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. Ja 3
King James Word Usage - Total: 13
from above 5, top 3, again 2, from the first 1, from the beginning 1, not translated 1
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/anothen.html
So how about this; anybody agree that the birth referred to two chapters before this one is the same birth?:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1
It is a heavenly birth from above, you know.
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1
It is a heavenly birth from above, you know.
:thumbsup::applause::applause::wavey:
Did you know Jn 3:5 could also be translated "Except one be born of water EVEN the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!
It may well be just as simple as that.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
This view is actually consistent with the view I mentioned about being an allusion to Ezekiel 36:25ff. Being cleansed with water and given a new Spirit is probably synonymous there too.
I'm fine with "from above." I don't understand why Nicodemus would ask about entering again into his mother's womb...but I'm fine with that interpretation.
:thumbsup: Yes, I agree. We add "and the" to make sense in English. Either way I believe it to be one event - one birth - as presented in Ezekiel 36. I think that there may be two aspects (forgiveness and regeneration) but it is one event.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
And the vast majority of commentators agree with this view from Ezekiel 36. That doesn't make it right... that just makes it probably right.
I waffle with Jn 3:5. It could mean ‘born of water even the Spirit’. But v. 3:5 differs from v. 3:3 in that the latter deals with the ability to see and the other with the ability to enter. Water could also signify either water baptism, or, the gospel (word) from the standpoint of a profession of faith (Edersheim's view) in order to become a partaker of the benefits of the New Covenant, i.e., entering into the kingdom. (Conforming to the type of those redeemed from Egypt had to believe the gospel and act in order to enter into His rest)
But I don't think Christ was referring to 'amniotic fluid' when He used the word 'water'.
But I don't think Christ was referring to 'amniotic fluid' when He used the word 'water'.
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Clearly the two most favored views are (1) born of water refers to being born of the flesh, and (2) born of water refers to an aspect of spiritual rebirth, perhaps cleansed of sin.
But either view still results in the same message, a person must be spiritually born anew in order to enter the kingdom of God.
But either view still results in the same message, a person must be spiritually born anew in order to enter the kingdom of God.
If born “from above” and of “water and Spirit” is a reference to Ezekiel, and John 3:8 follows this reference as well, then I think that we have that answer. This is one reason that I believe Jesus is pointing back to Scripture. If it is so, then Jesus was not anticipating a future explanation, but clarifying what He had just said.