Water and Spirit

[kyredneck]

If born “from above” and of “water and Spirit” is a reference to Ezekiel, and John 3:8 follows this reference as well, then I think that we have that answer.....

Articulate the answer for me please. Jn 3:8 is prerequisite to entering the kingdom, NOT synonymous with it.

Does ANYWHERE in the dialogue between Christ and Nicodemus is it stated that all those born of the Spirit will indeed 'enter into the kingdom'? All it says is one must first be born from above in order to enter into or even see the kingdom of God. It does not say that they will definitely enter into it.

 

[JonC]

Articulate the answer for me please. Jn 3:8 is prerequisite to entering the kingdom, NOT synonymous with it.

Does ANYWHERE in the dialogue between Christ and Nicodemus is it stated that all those born of the Spirit will indeed 'enter into the kingdom'? All it says is one must first be born from above in order to enter into or even see the kingdom of God. It does not say that they will definitely enter into it.

Yes. Jesus is looking back at Ezekiel (Icon rightly points out that there is a consistency that goes farther back as well). But consider:

Ezekiel 36:25-27
25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

Then you have from Ezekiel’s vision

Ezekiel 37:9-10 Then He said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life."'" So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.

And the vision explained:

Ezekiel 37:11-14
11 Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.'
12 "Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.
13 "Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people.
14 "I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD.'"

John 3:5-8 (NASB)
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."


Jesus is saying much more than you need a rebirth. I believe Nicodemus realized this. Often you will see in the New Testament references to the Old pointing you to a much broader Scripture than was quoted. It is the same here.

All of those who are born of the Spirit will enter into the Kingdom of God because it is God doing it (not for our sakes, but for His glory).


I hope that is a sufficient answer of my view....but beware...I'm not the most articulate fella around. :smilewinkgrin: (If I need to clarify my point, please let me know and I'll do my best).

 

[kyredneck]

...All of those who are born of the Spirit will enter into the Kingdom of God...

17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Ro 14

So, all of His children will experience 'righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit', guaranteed?

I don't think so. Actually I'm convinced it's quite the opposite. I believe it's very few that ever find it.

 

[JonC]

17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Ro 14

So, all of His children will experience 'righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit', guaranteed?

I don't think so. Actually I'm convinced it's quite the opposite. I believe it's very few that ever find it.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Yes. I believe that all who believe in His name, who are born of God, who have the right to become children of God, will see the Kingdom of God. Otherwise our salvation is nothing but an opportunity that can easily be lost.

I don’t think that we need to go out of John (except for, of course, what is referenced therein) to explore the conversation, but since we are touching on Romans:

Romans 8:29-30 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Romans 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Jesus is telling Nicodemus that this new birth - this birth from above - is something that God is doing. There is a consistency with this salvation from Genesis to Revelation. All who God cleanses, all who God puts within a new spirit, will see the Kingdom of God. Guaranteed.

 

[kyredneck]

.... All who God cleanses, all who God puts within a new spirit, will see the Kingdom of God. Guaranteed.

In the end, eternally, I agree. But while we live here on earth, to have life and to have it abundantly, we're not guaranteed of that simply because we've been 'born from above'. It takes conscious effort on our part to partake of the joys of the kingdom:

5 Yea, and for this very cause adding on your part all diligence, in your faith supply virtue; and in your virtue knowledge;
6 and in your knowledge self-control; and in your self-control patience; and in your patience godliness;
7 and in your godliness brotherly kindness; and in your brotherly kindness love.
8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to be not idle nor unfruitful unto the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he that lacketh these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten the cleansing from his old sins.
10 Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble:
11 for thus shall be richly supplied unto you the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 2 Pet 1

 

[kyredneck]

John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God....

I prefer YLT here:

12 but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God -- to those believing in his name,
13 who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten. Jn 1

Those who receive Christ, who were already children of God (v. 13), now have the power to mature and become Sons of God, as Paul drew the distinction between 'children' and 'sons' in Ro 8.

But nowhere is it indicated that these will indeed in fact will become 'Sons of God'. Go, rehearse the parable of the 'four grounds'.

 

[JonC]

I prefer YLT here:



12 but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God -- to those believing in his name,

13 who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten. Jn 1



Those who receive Christ, who were already children of God (v. 13), now have the power to mature and become Sons of God, as Paul drew the distinction between 'children' and 'sons' in Ro 8.



But nowhere is it indicated that these will indeed in fact will become 'Sons of God'. Go, rehearse the parable of the 'four grounds'.

I think that we agree for the most part (looking to eternity), but there are perhaps some underlying theological disagreements that affect each of our understandings on how these verses apply to the present. For example, I view only one of the soils as representing salvation. Also, I believe that those saved were once the unsaved (we differ here , as I do not hold any are children of God before they believed.).

 

[Greektim]

Perhaps the more pertinent question here is 'what does entering the kingdom of God mean'? Is it referring to immediate temporal benefits or just simply 'going to heaven when you die'?

Since Jews didn't think in terms of "going to heaven when you die", then you can check that one off your list. As JonC pointed out, Ezekiel 36 and its entire context refers to the New Covenant and resurrection as involved with the kingdom.

 

[JamesL]

Since Jews didn't think in terms of "going to heaven when you die", then you can check that one off your list. As JonC pointed out, Ezekiel 36 and its entire context refers to the New Covenant and resurrection as involved with the kingdom.

I agree here about the "going to heaven" issue, particularly in the mind of a Jew. Their #1 concerns, scripturally speaking, were their inheritance and an earthly kingdom.

They did not, however, automatically tie these to resurrection and true righteousness

Just as with believers today, the resurrection of believers seems to have been a side note doctrine. Yeah, we believe it, but it really doesn't have any substantial affect on the whole of doctrine.

Today's believer is commonly micro-focused on the inner man - are you going to heaven when you die.
The Jew then was micro-focused on temporal things

 

[salzer mtn]

I'm with Rev. on this one. Notice right after Jesus told Nicodemus, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God, Nicodemus ask a question, referring to the natural birth. How can a man be born when he is old ? can he enter the second time into his mothers womb and be born ? The question that Nicodemus ask is the key that unlocks the door to the answer you are seeking for. Christ explained that a watery birth is just a natural birth or a fleshly birth. That which is born of flesh is flesh. I think what a lot of people get hung up on is the statement Christ made, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit. Of course a man has to be born naturally before he can be born from above.

 

[kyredneck]

.... Of course a man has to be born naturally before he can be born from above.

.....are you sure of that? lol:

15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother`s womb.
44 For behold, when the voice of thy salutation came into mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. Lu 1

 

[salzer mtn]

.....are you sure of that? lol:

15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother`s womb.
44 For behold, when the voice of thy salutation came into mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. Lu 1

Well most of the time.:laugh:

 

[Van]

Clearly the two most favored views are (1) born of water refers to being born of the flesh, and (2) born of water refers to an aspect of spiritual rebirth, perhaps cleansed of sin.

But either view still results in the same message, a person must be spiritually born anew in order to enter the kingdom of God.

Perhaps the more pertinent question here is 'what does entering the kingdom of God mean'? Is it referring to immediate temporal benefits or just simply 'going to heaven when you die'?

Neither. When God transfers a person from the realm of darkness (in Adam) into the kingdom of His Son (in Christ) we are immediately saved forever. We have spiritually entered the kingdom of God. We have been born anew spiritually, undergone the circumcision of Christ, and arisen in Christ a new creation, created for good works.

 

[kyredneck]

Here's a good read from Pink http://pbministries.org/books/pink/John/john_08.htm

This book has been an important reference for me in the past, but the same could be said concerning many of his books. I have a 'Pink library' of books I've accumulated over the years.

A few quotes from Pink on the matter:

Water = Word of God....No sinner is quickened apart from the Word.

Pink early on was Dispensationalist, but later rejected it and actually wrote against it. I believe his view concerning regeneration may have changed also.

Pink is quoted in this excerpt from 'Immediate, Holy Spirit Regeneration' By Zack Guess:

".... the Holy Spirit is the sole agent in regeneration. Here it will be good to quote Arthur w. Pink in his book, The Holy Spirit, pp. 56,57:

In His work of "quickening," by which we mean the impartation of spiritual life to the soul, the Spirit acts immediately from within, and not by applying something from without. Quickening is a direct operation of the Spirit without the use of any instrument: the Word is used by Him afterwards to call into exercise the life then communicated…The soul, then, is quickened into newness of life by the direct and supernatural operation of the Spirit, without any medium or means whatever…No, men are not "quickened" by the Word, they must be quickened in order to receive and understand the Word.

Pink says on page forty-nine of the same book:

In regeneration one of God’s elect is the subject, and the Spirit of God is the sole agent. The subject of the new birth is wholly passive: he does not act but is acted upon. The sovereign work of the Spirit in the soul precedes all holy exercises of heart- such as sorrow for sin, faith in Christ, love toward God… This great change is not a gradual and protracted process, but is instantaneous: in an instant of time the favored subject of it passes from death unto life.

Note: A number of Sovereign Grace groups agree with what we Primitive Baptists teach on the so-called Five Points, but very few agree with us on the doctrine of Immediate Regeneration. There are some, notably the Protestant Reformed denomination, W. G. T. Shedd, a Congregationalist, A. W. Pink, W. E. Best, and a few others. Some theologians seem to talk out of both sides of their mouths. In some places in their theology books they seem to teach Immediate Regeneration while in other places they plainly teach Gospel Regeneration."

 

[Van]

The issue of this thread is the meaning of being born of water and Spirit. It is not about regeneration/rebirth before faith or faith before regeneration/rebirth. Scripture is clear on that topic too. We are chosen through faith in the truth, thus faith before regeneration.

 

[kyredneck]

Question for all those who are convinced that Jn 3:5 is an allusion to Ezek 36.

8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3 YLT

Is Christ implementing a brand new never done before thing here, or is he revealing a mystery from of old, something that always had been?

 

[Van]

Question for all those who are convinced that Jn 3:5 is an allusion to Ezek 36.

8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3 YLT

Is Christ implementing a brand new never done before thing here, or is he revealing a mystery from of old, something that always had been?

The new birth is certainly alluded to in the Old Testament. And pouring out water prefiguring being sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit can be found in several verses. Instead of translating the Greek born of water and Spirit, what if we viewed it as born out of spiritual water?

 

[JonC]

Question for all those who are convinced that Jn 3:5 is an allusion to Ezek 36.



8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3 YLT



Is Christ implementing a brand new never done before thing here, or is he revealing a mystery from of old, something that always had been?

I believe He is continuing to use the same OT reference (see Ezekiel 37, the aspect of God cleansing and giving a new spirit is there also).

 

[kyredneck]

I believe He is continuing to use the same OT reference (see Ezekiel 37, the aspect of God cleansing and giving a new spirit is there also).

That's about as clear as mud to me. I'll rephrase the question:

Were saints in OT times 'born from above'?

 

[JonC]

That's about as clear as mud to me. I'll rephrase the question:

Were saints in OT times 'born from above'?

I know I wasn’t clear in that short post, and I’m sorry. I didn’t have much time and just shot it off on my phone. My short answer is "no," they were not "born from above." If they were, I don't think we can get around a meaningless (or at least a very diminished) New Covenant. But I'll try to explain my previous post a bit better.

This was the post to which I responded (albeit insufficiently):

Question for all those who are convinced that Jn 3:5 is an allusion to Ezek 36.

8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3 YLT

Is Christ implementing a brand new never done before thing here, or is he revealing a mystery from of old, something that always had been?

I am one who is convinced that John 3:5 is referring to Ezekiel 36. Verse 8 continues in the same mode:

John 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." Points to the same place within the Old Testament with the vision of Ezekiel (Ezekiel 3:9). Nicodemus would know the reference, and the explanation of the vision.


Ezekiel 37:11-14 Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.' "Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. "Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. "I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD.'"

Jesus is telling Nicodemus that in order to see the Kingdom, God must cleans him and put within him a new spirit. Jesus tells him not to be amazed, and directs him back to the same OT reference. God will cause open their graves and cause them to come out. First century Judaism was concerned with what must be done in fulfilling the Law to be right under the conditions of the Old Covenant. It was about what they could do. Jesus denounces this view and tells Nicodemus that it is not for their sake, but for God’s own name that He acts. And it is God who will gather his people from the nations. It is God who will sprinkle clean water on them, and cleans them. It is God who will give them a new heart and a new spirit. It is God who will cause them to walk in His statutes. Everything points against the work of man and to the work of God.

Jesus is not introducing a new thing at all. Instead he is explaining what has been a mystery under the Old Covenant. It has always been faith that was reckoned as righteousness, and Jesus Christ has always been the object of that faith. This is what He is revealing. But no, OT saints were not benefactors during their lifetime of salvation in the same way that we are today. They looked to, and had faith in, a new covenant to be given. They looked towards the Kingdom. We still look towards the Kingdom (which is “now and not yet”) but for us it has been inaugurated. But the Old Covenant is distinct from the New Covenant, and saints in the Old Testament times were not “born from above.”

I hope that I have cleared up a little of that muddy water in my position. If not, please just let me know. I know we may not agree, but at least we can understand each other.