Water Baptism

[Craigbythesea]

Van said:

Let us try to provide more clarity in the translation of "baptism" (G908) which appears about 22 times in the NT.

To my, perhaps flawed understanding, the word is used to refer to three distinct baptisms or immersions;

1) Water baptism - Matthew 3:7, 21:25; Mark 1:4, 11:30; Luke 3:3, 7:29, 20:4; Acts 1:22, 10:37, 13:24, 18:25, 19:3-4.

2) Baptism of fire, the "cup" of sacrifice - Mark 10:38, 10:39, Luke 12:50

3) Spiritual baptism - Romans 6:4, Ephesians 4:5, 1 Peter 3:21



I am horrified to find such “stuff” posted on a Baptist message board.

I Peter 3:21. And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you--not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (NRSV)

I do not know of even one New Testament scholar specializing today in the study of the Epistles of Peter, Baptist or otherwise, who does not believe that 1 Peter 3:21 is speaking of water baptism and the efficacy of it for salvation. 1 Peter 3:21 expressly says that “baptism now saves you.” The remaining portion of the verse clarifies the fact that it is “not the removal of dirt from the flesh” during water baptism that saves us, but it is the appeal to God through water baptism for a good conscious that saves us, and this is possible only through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Eph. 4:4. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling,
5. one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6. one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all. (NRSV)

I do not know of even one New Testament scholar specializing today in the study of Ephesians, Baptist or otherwise, who does not believe that Ephesians 4:4-6 is speaking of water baptism.

Roman 6:4. Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
6. We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.
7. For whoever has died is freed from sin.
8. But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
9. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.
10. The death he died, he died to sin, once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. (NRSV)

All hands, except for one, agree that this passage speaking of “baptism into death” rather than baptism into the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ascetic X]

Van said:

Let us try to provide more clarity in the translation of "baptism" (G908) which appears about 22 times in the NT.

To my, perhaps flawed understanding, the word is used to refer to three distinct baptisms or immersions;

1) Water baptism - Matthew 3:7, 21:25; Mark 1:4, 11:30; Luke 3:3, 7:29, 20:4; Acts 1:22, 10:37, 13:24, 18:25, 19:3-4.

2) Baptism of fire, the "cup" of sacrifice - Mark 10:38, 10:39, Luke 12:50

3) Spiritual baptism - Romans 6:4, Ephesians 4:5, 1 Peter 3:21



I am horrified to find such “stuff” posted on a Baptist message board.

I Peter 3:21. And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you--not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (NRSV)

I do not know of even one New Testament scholar specializing today in the study of the Epistles of Peter, Baptist or otherwise, who does not believe that 1 Peter 3:21 is speaking of water baptism and the efficacy of it for salvation.

1Corinthians 1:17 “for Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.”

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Firstly and biefly, the figurative use of baptizo. In Greek literature, people are frequently ‘baptized’ in debt, misery, sleep and alcohol. We might use the words ‘plunged’ or ‘immersed.’ Now if one was plunged into debt or misery, this might last one’s whole life or for just a short period. Only the context would say wheher the ‘baptism’ was permanent or temporary. However, if one was immersed in sleep or ‘overwhelmed’ by wine, it is obvious that in due course one would wake up or sober up. The ‘baptism’ would be a temporary one. It is therefore wrong to say that baptizo in these figurative usages must mean a permanent change.

This enables us to understand better Luke 12:50. “But I have a baptism (Gk. Baptismos ) to be baptized with (Gk. Baptizo), and how distressed I am till it is accomplished.” Our Lord cannot be referring to His water baptism, which had already taken place, so he must mean His baptism of sufferings which He was to undergo. He declared, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death” (Matt 26:38). The baptism analogy is particularly apt if we attribute to Him the words of Psalm 69: ‘Save Me, O God, for the waters have come up to My neck. I sink in deep mire where there is no standing; I have come into deep waters, where the floods overflow Me.’ But His overwhelming anguish was only a temporary one. He emerged from His sufferings (Phil 2:9; Heb 12:2) to assume His place at the right hand of God. This Baptismos, therefore, was also a temporary one.

Secondly, it may be helpful to see how some of the Church fathers write about baptism. This is not out of respect for their theological understanding, which was variable to say the least. Rather, we look to them to see what Greek-speakers in the early centuries A.D. understood baptizo to mean, and taught their congregations.

1. Cyril of Jerusalem, Instruction III, on Baptism XII. ‘For as Jesus assuming the sins of the world died, that having slain sin He might raise you up to righteousness; so also you, going down into the water, and in a manner buried in the waters as He in the rock, are raised again, walking in newness of life.’

2. John Chrysostom. Comment on 1Cor. Discourse XL. I. ‘For to be baptized, and to sink down, then to emerge, is a symbol of the descent into the underworld, and of the descent from there. Therefore Paul calls baptism, the burial, saying, “we were buried therefore, with Him by the baptism into death.”‘

3. Athanasius. Discourse on the Holy Passover, 5. ‘In these benefits you were baptized, O newly-enlightened; the initiation into the grace……has become to you an earnest of resurrection; you have the baptism as a surety of the abode in heaven. You imitated, in the sinking down, the burial of the Master; but you rose again from there, before works, witnessing the works of the resurrection.’

4. Gregory of Nazianus. Discourse XL, on the holy Baptism. ‘Let us therefore be buried with Christ by the baptism, that we mayalso rise with Him. Let us go down with Him, that we may also be exalted with Him; let us come up with Him, that we may also be glorified with Him.’

In every single example that Ican find (and there are plenty of others), the Church Fathers understand Baptizo to mean immersion. They wrote in Greek; they ought to know what a Greek word means.

Finally, let us look at the earliest post-Biblical Christian work (c. A.D. 110) to mention baptism. It might be mentioned in passing that the writers show absolutely no knowledge of infant baptist. Clearly it had not been introduced at this early stage.

Didache VII. Baptize thus: having first recited all these things, baptize (Gk. Baptizo) “in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,” in running water. If you have no running water, baptize in other water; if you cannot baptize in cold water, use warm. If you have neither, pour water on the head thrice……..’

The point here is that baptizo is only used for imersion. When permitting pouring as a last resort, baptizo is not used. It couldn’t be. Baptizo means ‘immerse.’

 

[Ben1445]

I do not know of even one New Testament scholar specializing today in the study of the Epistles of Peter, Baptist or otherwise, who does not believe that 1 Peter 3:21 is speaking of water baptism and the efficacy of it for salvation. 1 Peter 3:21 expressly says that “baptism now saves you.” The remaining portion of the verse clarifies the fact that it is “not the removal of dirt from the flesh” during water baptism that saves us,

????

You are the first person I have ever heard say that this is referring to earthly dust (from which we are made).
The filth of the flesh is undoubtedly referring to sin. I don’t think that Peter is addressing any kind of idea that if you have been out in the garden but never baptized you are too dirty for heaven.
Although you have not clearly stated it as such, that is the importance that you have relegated to that statement. We are not talking about dirt on the skin. That is not why we need a Saviour.

As if anyone would be confused and think that salvation could be achieved by a good brand of soap.
This argument of yours lacks any depth in spiritual understanding.

but it is the appeal to God through water baptism for a good conscious that saves us, and this is possible only through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 3:21
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Your translation does not do justice to the meaning of the text. You appear to have selected a version that caters to your beliefs.
If I have a clear conscience, I would not need to be saved by baptism. But obedience is the answer a clear conscience gives to God.

But I recognize that we disagree in translation first and are not likely to make any headway on this point

 

[Van]

1Corinthians 1:17 “for Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.”

No sure what the purpose of this post was. "Baptize" here is the verb, G907, which appears more than 70 times and is used to refer to both water baptism and spiritual baptism. In 1 Corinthians 1:17 the meaning is obvious, "For Christ did not send me to water baptize, but to preach the gospel...."

 

[Van]

Van said:

Let us try to provide more clarity in the translation of "baptism" (G908) which appears about 22 times in the NT.

To my, perhaps flawed understanding, the word is used to refer to three distinct baptisms or immersions;

1) Water baptism - Matthew 3:7, 21:25; Mark 1:4, 11:30; Luke 3:3, 7:29, 20:4; Acts 1:22, 10:37, 13:24, 18:25, 19:3-4.

2) Baptism of fire, the "cup" of sacrifice - Mark 10:38, 10:39, Luke 12:50

3) Spiritual baptism - Romans 6:4, Ephesians 4:5, 1 Peter 3:21



I am horrified to find such “stuff” posted on a Baptist message board.

I Peter 3:21. And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you--not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (NRSV)

I do not know of even one New Testament scholar specializing today in the study of the Epistles of Peter, Baptist or otherwise, who does not believe that 1 Peter 3:21 is speaking of water baptism and the efficacy of it for salvation. 1 Peter 3:21 expressly says that “baptism now saves you.” The remaining portion of the verse clarifies the fact that it is “not the removal of dirt from the flesh” during water baptism that saves us, but it is the appeal to God through water baptism for a good conscious that saves us, and this is possible only through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Eph. 4:4. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling,
5. one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6. one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all. (NRSV)

I do not know of even one New Testament scholar specializing today in the study of Ephesians, Baptist or otherwise, who does not believe that Ephesians 4:4-6 is speaking of water baptism.

Roman 6:4. Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
6. We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.
7. For whoever has died is freed from sin.
8. But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
9. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.
10. The death he died, he died to sin, once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. (NRSV)

All hands, except for one, agree that this passage speaking of “baptism into death” rather than baptism into the Holy Spirit.

1) Leaving aside histrionics, 1 Peter 3:21 refers to spiritual baptism. Does water baptism save us, thus salvation by grace through faith plus works? Nope. Bit we we were spiritually baptized into Christ, that did save us. Romans 6:3.

2) Water Baptism is emblematic of the spiritual baptism into Christ which saves us. You can find that view in numerous commentaries, including Barnes' Notes on the Bible, Gill's Exposition,

3) 1 Peter 3:21 NASB: Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

​

a) Corresponding to that, means Noah's salvation from the flood within the Ark, was a figure and resemblance of our salvation from sin within Christ.​

​

b) Spiritual baptism into Christ now saves you, with the washing of regeneration, not the washing by water of the flesh.​

​

c) Therefore, an appeal to God, from a conscience void of any offense toward God due to the washing of regeneration.​

​

d) because of your faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. ​

​

4) Ephesians 4:5 refers to our spiritual baptism into Christ.

5) Romans 6:3 NASB:

Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?​

 

[Ben1445]

No sure what the purpose of this post was. "Baptize" here is the verb, G907, which appears more than 70 times and is used to refer to both water baptism and spiritual baptism. In 1 Corinthians 1:17 the meaning is obvious, "For Christ did not send me to water baptize, but to preach the gospel...."

If baptism was about regeneration then woe to Paul for not baptizing.
But what he said was woe to himself if he did not preach the gospel.

Christ would clearly have sent Paul to baptize as well as preach were it necessary for salvation.

 

[Craigbythesea]

1) Leaving aside histrionics, 1 Peter 3:21 refers to spiritual baptism. Does water baptism save us, thus salvation by grace through faith plus works? Nope. Bit we we were spiritually baptized into Christ, that did save us. Romans 6:3.

2) Water Baptism is emblematic of the spiritual baptism into Christ which saves us. You can find that view in numerous commentaries, including Barnes' Notes on the Bible, Gill's Exposition,

3) 1 Peter 3:21 NASB: Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

​

a) Corresponding to that, means Noah's salvation from the flood within the Ark, was a figure and resemblance of our salvation from sin within Christ.​

​

b) Spiritual baptism into Christ now saves you, with the washing of regeneration, not the washing by water of the flesh.​

​

c) Therefore, an appeal to God, from a conscience void of any offense toward God due to the washing of regeneration.​

​

d) because of your faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. ​

​

4) Ephesians 4:5 refers to our spiritual baptism into Christ.

5) Romans 6:3 NASB:

Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?​

I have here in my study 31 commentaries on Ephesians and 24 commentaries on 1 Peter, including very recent commentaries on the Greek text of these two books of the New Testament written by scholars who are very much abreast of current New Testament scholarship. None of them agree with what you have written. In post 23, Martin did an excellent job of showing that the Greek word βαπτίζω expresses the concept of immersion in water. Tertullian (c. 150–225 AD) wrote extensively about water baptism and his writings show very clearly what the early fathers of the church believed about water baptism and its efficacy for salvation. His views on the issue were the virtually unanimous view of the church until some renegade Roman Catholics freaked out over the issue of salvation by works and radically misunderstood what Paul wrote about works not realizing that he was, as he said himself over and over again, writing about “works of the law.” The absurd concept that water Baptism is a “work” was given birth during this very dark period of church history. However, by the grace of God and common sense, that absurd notion took hold in only a relatively small part of the church and today the very large portion of the church stands firm on Peter’s words in 1 Peter 3:20-21,

20 ἀπειθήσασίν ποτε ὅτε ἀπεξεδέχετο ἡ τοῦ θεοῦ μακροθυμία ἐν ἡμέραις Νῶε κατασκευαζομένης κιβωτοῦ εἰς ἣν ⸀ὀλίγοι, τοῦτʼ ἔστιν ὀκτὼ ψυχαί, διεσώθησαν διʼ ὕδατος. 21 ὃ ⸂καὶ ὑμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν⸃ σῴζει βάπτισμα, οὐ σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου ἀλλὰ συνειδήσεως ἀγαθῆς ἐπερώτημα εἰς θεόν, διʼ ἀναστάσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ,

Peter’s syntax is absolutely clear, and however we may interpret his teaching, our interpretation must agree completely with his syntax. In verse 20, he says that eight persons were saved through water (διεσώθησαν δι᾿ ὕδατος). He does not say that eight persons were saved through baptism in the Spirit. In verse 20, he says that this salvation through water prefigured baptism. A word –for-word translation here is “Which antitype also now saves you.” Syntactically, baptism is here the antitype of “salvation through water.” Therefore, there is absolutely no question but what Peter is saying that water baptism now saves, and he elaborates by expressing the fact that it is “not the removal of dirt from the flesh” during water baptism that saves us, but it is the appeal to God through water baptism for a good conscious that saves, and that this is made possible through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Please see especially the following commentaries on the Greek text of 1 Peter:

Bigg, Charles - I.C.C. (1 Peter, 2 Peter, Jude) exe., xv, 353 (198 on 1 Peter) pages, 1902, Second Edition
Davids, Peter H. - N.I.C. exe., xxii, 266 pages, 1990
Donelson, Lewis R. N.T.L. (1 and 2 Peter) exe., xxiii, 301 (157 on 1 Peter) pages, 2010
Elliott, John - H. A.B. exe., xxiii, 956 pages, 2000
Kelly, J. N. D. - H.N.T.C. (1 Peter, 2 Peter, Jude) exe., x, 387 (221 on 1 Peter) pages, 1969
Michaels, J. Ramsey - W.B.C. exe., lxxv, 337 pages, 1988
Reicke, Bo Ivar - A.B. (James, 1 & 2 Peter, Jude) exe., xxxviii, 221 (73 on 1 Peter) pages, 1964
Selwyn, Edward Gordon exe., xvi, 517 pages, 1947, Second Edition

 

[Van]

If baptism was about regeneration then woe to Paul for not baptizing.
But what he said was woe to himself if he did not preach the gospel.

Christ would clearly have sent Paul to baptize as well as preach were it necessary for salvation.

You seem to miss my whole point, spiritual baptism done by God not men is necessary for salvation. In order to be "baptized into Christ" an action solely by God, God must choose the individual and set him or her apart in Christ, the "sanctification by the Spirit" in 2 Thessalonians 2:13. God bestows the benefit of salvation on those whose faith He credits as righteousness, Romans 4:23-25.

 

[Van]

I have here in my study 31 commentaries on Ephesians and 24 commentaries on 1 Peter, including very recent commentaries on the Greek text of these two books of the New Testament written by scholars who are very much abreast of current New Testament scholarship. None of them agree with what you have written. In post 23, Martin did an excellent job of showing that the Greek word βαπτίζω expresses the concept of immersion in water. Tertullian (c. 150–225 AD) wrote extensively about water baptism and his writings show very clearly what the early fathers of the church believed about water baptism and its efficacy for salvation. His views on the issue were the virtually unanimous view of the church until some renegade Roman Catholics freaked out over the issue of salvation by works and radically misunderstood what Paul wrote about works not realizing that he was, as he said himself over and over again, writing about “works of the law.” The absurd concept that water Baptism is a “work” was given birth during this very dark period of church history. However, by the grace of God and common sense, that absurd notion took hold in only a relatively small part of the church and today the very large portion of the church stands firm on Peter’s words in 1 Peter 3:20-21,

20 ἀπειθήσασίν ποτε ὅτε ἀπεξεδέχετο ἡ τοῦ θεοῦ μακροθυμία ἐν ἡμέραις Νῶε κατασκευαζομένης κιβωτοῦ εἰς ἣν ⸀ὀλίγοι, τοῦτʼ ἔστιν ὀκτὼ ψυχαί, διεσώθησαν διʼ ὕδατος. 21 ὃ ⸂καὶ ὑμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν⸃ σῴζει βάπτισμα, οὐ σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου ἀλλὰ συνειδήσεως ἀγαθῆς ἐπερώτημα εἰς θεόν, διʼ ἀναστάσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ,

Peter’s syntax is absolutely clear, and however we may interpret his teaching, our interpretation must agree completely with his syntax. In verse 20, he says that eight persons were saved through water (διεσώθησαν δι᾿ ὕδατος). He does not say that eight persons were saved through baptism in the Spirit. In verse 20, he says that this salvation through water prefigured baptism. A word –for-word translation here is “Which antitype also now saves you.” Syntactically, baptism is here the antitype of “salvation through water.” Therefore, there is absolutely no question but what Peter is saying that water baptism now saves, and he elaborates by expressing the fact that it is “not the removal of dirt from the flesh” during water baptism that saves us, but it is the appeal to God through water baptism for a good conscious that saves, and that this is made possible through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Please see especially the following commentaries on the Greek text of 1 Peter:

Bigg, Charles - I.C.C. (1 Peter, 2 Peter, Jude) exe., xv, 353 (198 on 1 Peter) pages, 1902, Second Edition
Davids, Peter H. - N.I.C. exe., xxii, 266 pages, 1990
Donelson, Lewis R. N.T.L. (1 and 2 Peter) exe., xxiii, 301 (157 on 1 Peter) pages, 2010
Elliott, John - H. A.B. exe., xxiii, 956 pages, 2000
Kelly, J. N. D. - H.N.T.C. (1 Peter, 2 Peter, Jude) exe., x, 387 (221 on 1 Peter) pages, 1969
Michaels, J. Ramsey - W.B.C. exe., lxxv, 337 pages, 1988
Reicke, Bo Ivar - A.B. (James, 1 & 2 Peter, Jude) exe., xxxviii, 221 (73 on 1 Peter) pages, 1964
Selwyn, Edward Gordon exe., xvi, 517 pages, 1947, Second Edition

Stop posting vague claims. Do all 24 commentaries on 1 Perter 3:21 say water baptism is not emphatic of Christ's spiritual baptism.

“And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’

“I baptized you]with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Unless you have been baptized into Christ's Spirit, such that you are in Christ and indwelt such that Christ is in you, you have not been saved. Full Stop

 

[Ben1445]

No sure what the purpose of this post was.

You seem to miss my whole point, spiritual baptism done by God not men is necessary for salvation.

Sorry. When you say I’m not sure what this means, that is what I think you mean.

So if you really understand the purpose of the post, don’t say that you don’t.

 

[Van]

Step 3. Distinguish Spirit Baptism and Water Baptism​

Primary readings: 1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 1:13-14; Romans 6:3-4; Galatians 3:26-27.

Explanation: At the moment of faith, the Holy Spirit baptizes the believer into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). This is a spiritual union with Christ’s death and resurrection (Romans 6:3-4). Water baptism is the outward testimony and picture of this inward reality. Do not confuse the sign with the thing signified.

The above is a typical view of Baptists.

 

[Ben1445]

You seem to miss my whole point, spiritual baptism done by God not men is necessary for salvation.

That is fine. But you missed my point.

In order to be "baptized into Christ" an action solely by God, God must choose the individual and set him or her apart in Christ, the "sanctification by the Spirit" in 2 Thessalonians 2:13. God bestows the benefit of salvation on those whose faith He credits as righteousness, Romans 4:23-25.

The point was made not in answer to something that you said, but in answer to someone who believes water baptism is efficacious to salvation.

 

[Van]

Sorry. When you say I’m not sure what this means, that is what I think you mean.

So if you really understand the purpose of the post, don’t say that you don’t.

You seem to miss my whole point, spiritual baptism done by God, NOT men, is necessary for salvation. In order to be "baptized into Christ," an action solely by God, God must choose the individual and set him or her apart in Christ, the "sanctification by the Spirit" in 2 Thessalonians 2:13. God bestows the benefit of salvation on those whose faith He credits as righteousness, Romans 4:23-25.

 

[Ben1445]

You seem to miss my whole point, spiritual baptism done by God, NOT men, is necessary for salvation. In order to be "baptized into Christ," an action solely by God, God must choose the individual and set him or her apart in Christ, the "sanctification by the Spirit" in 2 Thessalonians 2:13. God bestows the benefit of salvation on those whose faith He credits as righteousness, Romans 4:23-25.

Seriously???

Please go back and read every post for context.

You are missing something. Or you don’t mean what you say.

 

[Van]

That is fine. But you missed my point.



The point was made not in answer to something that you said, but in answer to someone who believes water baptism is efficacious to salvation.

Great, I missed the clause in your post where you said spiritual baptism is necessary for salvation. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[37818]

2) Baptism of fire, the "cup" of sacrifice - Mark 10:38, 10:39, Luke 12:50

Mark 10:38-39, But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: . . . .

Luke 12:50, But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

I do not agree with your understanding regarding the baptism with fire.


Luke 3:16-17, . . . and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

I am persuaded the baptism with fire unquenchable to be for the perishing.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

In post 23, Martin did an excellent job of showing that the Greek word βαπτίζω expresses the concept of immersion in water.

Thank you. However....

Tertullian (c. 150–225 AD) wrote extensively about water baptism and his writings show very clearly what the early fathers of the church believed about water baptism and its efficacy for salvation.

I am not too bothered about what Tertullian may have written. I don't have access to my ECF sources just now, but I seem to recall that Clement of Alexandria and Cyprian both supported infant 'baptism.' The Church Fathers do not speak with a united voice, and even where they do, we need to stick with the Scriptures.
There is a baptism with ( or 'in') the Holy Spirit (e.g. Matt. 3:11); the question is finding where it is legitimate to suppose that God's word speaks of such a thing.

 

[Van]

Mark 10:38-39, But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: . . . .

Luke 12:50, But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

I do not agree with your understanding regarding the baptism with fire.


Luke 3:16-17, . . . and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

I am persuaded the baptism with fire unquenchable to be for the perishing.

Does the word translated baptism in Mark 10:38-39 (G908) refer to undergoing adversity? How about the baptism of perfecting fire? It certainly does NOT refer to being tossed into the Lake of Fire.

The usage is clearly not "water baptism" or "spiritual baptism into Christ" but refers to the pain and suffering Christ endured to perfect or fulfill God's purpose. Ditto for the disciples in view in Mark 10:39.

Perhaps you are referring to Christ baptizing with "spirit" and with "fire. Matthew 3:11, That word (G907) is NOT the subject. I agree, Christ baptizes believers with spirit and non-believers with fire.

 

[Van]

1 Peter 3:21 NASB
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Interpretation:

Noah's salvation from the flood, from being within the Ark God designed, prefigured and foreshadowed our spiritual sanctification from sin once we are placed spiritually "in Christ." Our spiritual baptism into Christ is not like the symbolic water baptism which could remove dirt from our body, but provides the washing of regeneration which results in our being born anew. Subsequently we can appeal to God with a clear conscious, because all our sins have been taken out of the way. And this great blessing was obtained through our faith in the resurrected Jesus Christ, who now sits at the right hand of God.