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Waterboarding was a war crime in WW2. What's changed?

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JustChristian

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Waterboarding was a war crime in WW2. What's changed?
April 21, 2009
http://timesonline.typepad.com/time...ing-was-a-war-crime-in-ww2-whats-changed.html


Dick Cheney wants us all to know how effective waterboarding has been in providing the CIA with "intelligence". It doesn't have a good track record.
Water torture was commonly used in Japanese prisoner of war camps during interrogations. Eric Lomax recently described in The Times his horrific experience of it at the hands of the Kempetai, the Japanese military Police.
In another notorious case from 1943, prisoners in Changi jail were interrogated after British and Australian commandos had sunk Japanese ships in Singapore harbour. The Japanese believed, wrongly, that civilian internees in Changi had passed information to the commandos. Of the 57 who were interrogated, one was executed and another 13 died as a result of torture, beatings and starvation.

After the liberation of Singapore in 1945, a commission of inquiry set up by former prisoners reported on the incident, describing the "water treatment" that had been used, and the ease with which entirely innocent prisoners had been made to confess:

There were two forms of water torture. In the first the victim was tied or held down on his back and a cloth placed over his nose and mouth. Water was then poured on the cloth. Interrogation proceeded. and the victim was beaten if he did not reply. As he opened. his mouth to breathe or answer questions, water went down his throat until he could hold no more.

Sometimes he was then beaten over his distended stomach, sometimes a Japanese jumped on his stomach or sometimes pressed on it with his foot. In the second, the victim was tied. lengthways on a ladder, face upwards, with a rung of the ladder across his throat and his head below the ladder. In this position he was slid head first into a tub of water and kept there until almost drowned. After being revived interrogation continued and he would be re-immersed.

As a war crimes investigator, my uncle, Cyril Wild, interrogated one of the accused officers. You can read a transcript of the interrogation in this blog by Robin Rowland, author of A River Kwai Story, the Sonkrai Tribunal.
After the war ended, Japanese officers who had participated in the torture of prisoners, including the use of waterboarding, were condemned to death in the Far East war crimes trials. And General Yamashita, commander of Japanese forces in the Philippines, was condemned to death by the US Supreme Court for his failure to prevent his forces from committing atrocities.
The controversial decision that a commander in chief should be held personally responsible for the acts of all the men under his command became known as the Yamashita Standard.
 

padredurand

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After the war ended, Japanese officers who had participated in the torture of prisoners, including the use of waterboarding, were condemned to death in the Far East war crimes trials. And General Yamashita, commander of Japanese forces in the Philippines, was condemned to death by the US Supreme Court for his failure to prevent his forces from committing atrocities.
The controversial decision that a commander in chief should be held personally responsible for the acts of all the men under his command became known as the Yamashita Standard.

Including..... that is a very important word JustChristian.

Consider the following case

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Defendant: Sawamura, Masatoshi, Sergeant, Headquarters POW Camp;Taisho POW Camp (No. 10 Branch Camp); and Yokkaichi POW Camp (No. 17 Branch Camp or Nagoya No. 5 POW Camp), all in Osaka Area, Honshu, Japan Docket No./ Date: 136/ April 14 - 29, 1947, Yokohama, Japan
Charge: Violation of the laws and customs of war: 1. Did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and abuse PWs (spec 1-5, 13-15, 20, 22, 23, 26, 27) 2. Did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and torture PW (spec 6-8, 16-18, 21, 24, 25)
Specifications: beating using among others hands, sword scabbard, saber belt, belt buckle, bamboo sticks, rifle butts; kicking; subjecting PWs to ju-jitsu; forcing PW to stand at attention for a long period of time, sometimes in cold weather without sufficient clothing and on one occasion, in the nude; throwing a bucket of ice cold water over PW in cold weather;water treatment which entailed forcing water down PWs throat and nostrils using among others a hose, tubes; picking up and throwing PW to the ground; banging head against a wall; raising and lowering a sword on a PWs neck in an effort to make him give information.
Verdict: 30 years CHL
Reviewing Authority's Recommendations: Accused, at times brutally, beat and tortured PWs for minor infractions of camp regulations (failing to salute, stealing, being slow or failing to execute orders, accepting food from civilians outside of the camp, accepting cigarettes from a Japanese guard that they would not name, eating foodstuffs not given to them) and for no reason at all ("beaten, humiliated and pestered by Sawamura constantly"). Accused was known as the most brutal of all the Japanese in the camps, often inflicting brutal beatings and torture for anything that he did not find to his liking (the manner of reporting attendance, for mistakes made while reporting attendance or issuing commands in Japanese, not marching "to suit" the accused)
[/FONT]
In spite of the heinous nature of his conduct, [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sawamura was sentenced to 20 years of hard labor - not death.

[/FONT]
At the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, a.k.a. Tokyo Trials, that Begala says McCain is referring to, only seven Japanese war criminals were executed. Every one of them was convicted of either being complicit in or directly comitting atrocities and murder on a grand scale.

Koki Hirota:
During Hirota's second tenure as foreign minister, late in 1937, Japanese forces marched into Nanking. Thousands of innocent civilians were buried alive, used as targets for bayonet practice, shot in large groups and thrown into the Yangtze River. Rampant rapes (and gang rapes) of women ranging from age seven to over seventy were reported. The international community estimated that within the six weeks of the Massacre, 20,000 women were raped, many of them subsequently murdered or mutilated; and over 300,000 people were killed, often with the most inhumane brutality.

While Hirota was not in charge of the army units that invaded Nanjing, he was well informed about the massacre. The international community had filed many protests to the Japanese Embassy. Bates, an American professor of history at the University of Nanking during the Japanese occupation, provided evidence that the protests were forwarded to Tokyo and were discussed in great detail between Japanese officials and the U.S. ambassador in Tokyo.

From National Review
Hirota was executed for atrocities on a grand scale. It is disingenuous to say he and the six others were executed for waterboarding.
 
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OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Including..... that is a very important word JustChristian.

Consider the following case

In spite of the heinous nature of his conduct, [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sawamura was sentenced to 20 years of hard labor - not death.

[/FONT]Hirota was executed for atrocities on a grand scale. It is disingenuous to say he and the six others were executed for waterboarding.

JC is quite an expert at being disingenuous.
 

JustChristian

New Member
Including..... that is a very important word JustChristian.

Consider the following case

In spite of the heinous nature of his conduct, [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sawamura was sentenced to 20 years of hard labor - not death.

[/FONT]Hirota was executed for atrocities on a grand scale. It is disingenuous to say he and the six others were executed for waterboarding.

The article says that waterboarding was considered to be a war crime and that enemy soldiers who committed war crimes were put to death. It doesn't say that that was the only crime they committed nor does it say that all of those accused were put to death. You're nitpicking. The important thing is it was considered to be a war crime. That's exactly what the title of the article says. You're the one who's deing disengenious not me,
 

Crabtownboy

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Waterboarding was designated as illegal by U.S. generals in the Vietnam War.[76] On January 21, 1968, The Washington Post published a controversial front-page photograph of two U.S soldiers and one South Vietnamese soldier participating in the waterboarding of a North Vietnamese POW near Da Nang.[77] The article described the practice as "fairly common".[77] The photograph led to the soldier being court-martialled by a U.S. military court within one month of its publication, and he was discharged from the army.[76][78] Another waterboarding photograph of the same scene, referred to as "water torture" in the caption, is also exhibited in the War Remnants Museum in Ho Chi Minh City.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#Vietnam_War

I can hit you, but it is not right for you to hit me!

In civilian life water torture, including waterboarding is illegal. This is frm the same article linked above.

The use of "third degree interrogation" techniques in order to compel confession, ranging from "psychological duress such as prolonged confinement to extreme violence and torture", was widespread in early American policing. Lassiter classified the water cure as "orchestrated physical abuse",[85] and described the police technique as a "modern day variation of the method of water torture that was popular during the Middle Ages". The technique employed by the police involved either holding the head in water until almost drowning, or laying on the back and forcing water into the mouth or nostrils.[85] Such techniques were classified as "'covert' third degree torture" since they left no signs of physical abuse, and became popular after 1910 when the direct application of physical violence in order to force a confession became a media issue and some courts began to deny obviously compelled confessions.[86] The publication of this information in 1931 as part of the Wickersham Commission's "Report on Lawlessness in Law Enforcement" led to a decline in the use of third degree police interrogation techniques in the 1930s and 1940s.[86]

In 1983 Texas sheriff James Parker and three of his deputies were convicted for conspiring to force confessions. The complaint said they "subject prisoners to a suffocating water torture ordeal in order to coerce confessions. This generally included the placement of a towel over the nose and mouth of the prisoner and the pouring of water in the towel until the prisoner began to move, jerk, or otherwise indicate that he was suffocating and/or drowning".[71] The sheriff was sentenced to ten years in prison, and the deputies to four years.[71][78]

There is absolutely no way that waterboarding can be justified using the teachings of Christ!
 
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padredurand

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The article says that waterboarding was considered to be a war crime and that enemy soldiers who committed war crimes were put to death. It doesn't say that that was the only crime they committed nor does it say that all of those accused were put to death. You're nitpicking. The important thing is it was considered to be a war crime. That's exactly what the title of the article says. You're the one who's deing disengenious not me,


The article says... Unfortunately for the article, none of the guards were charged with waterboarding. In the case of Sawamura, he was charged with "
water treatment which entailed forcing water down PWs throat and nostrils using among others a hose, tubes;" (citation previously provided).

Crabtownboy cites a wiki describing, "
Lassiter classified the water cure as "orchestrated physical abuse",[85] and described the police technique as a "modern day variation of the method of water torture that was popular during the Middle Ages". The technique employed by the police involved either holding the head in water until almost drowning, or laying on the back and forcing water into the mouth or nostrils."

ABC, in a revealing article, describes waterboarding as
"(t)he prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.

Granted that is harsh but nothing as described in the war crimes indictment or in the Wiki article. The major difference is that introducing water into the mouths and noses of the person can induce drowning. Waterboarding can only simulate it.

You're the one who's deing disengenious not me,


It is not being disingenuous to consider facts in their proper context.
 

Crabtownboy

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But abortion can ?

I do not believe I have ever Said that, or even thought it. I have said that there is only one verse in the Bible that even remotely speaks about abortion, and that one comes down on the side of the mother. But that is a totally different topic from this thread.

Waterboarding is torture and I do not see any saying of Jesus that says torture is all right. I don't believe Jesus even mentioned abortion.

No, I am not in favor of abortion.
 

Bro. Curtis

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Yes you have. You have said the baby isn't alive until the first breath. And if you can use our savior to beat us over the head about waterboarding, then I can certainly bring up abortion. It would be great if we could speak up as much, if not more, about the unborn's life that the treatment of combat enemies. Then I'll let you bring up Christ's name unchallenged.
 

tinytim

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Those poor poor terrorists!!!

A bleeding heart liberal should be charged with accessory to terrorism.

How soon we forget 9/11...
 

Andre

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Obviously the use of waterboarding is entirely anti-gospel. If you buy intot the legitimacy of waterboarding you are colluding with the kingdoms of this world, not the kingdom that Jesus initiated.
 

Bro. Curtis

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Andre, you were the guy who said David's prayers for victory were sin.

I thought I heard how Christ was brought a sword. He came to set people apart, in fact. Since most of the caterwauling is from the atheist, evolutionist, pro-abortion, scripture denying left, I gotta say waterboarding is probably not where we should be focused.

And I do wish the feigned outrage would be placed more thoughtfully. I am tired of being harped on about this, when abortion runs unchecked, even to the point where current restraints are removed. Don't talk to me about torture of anyone while you vote in people who will burn a fetus chemically, in the womb.
 

Andre

Well-Known Member
Andre, you were the guy who said David's prayers for victory were sin.
Indeed, I am.

I thought I heard how Christ was brought a sword.
The "sword" in that context is clearly a metaphor for how allegiance to the kingdom will divide us from non-believers. Surely you are not suggesting that Jesus came to bring violence to this world.

He came to set people apart, in fact. Since most of the caterwauling is from the atheist, evolutionist, pro-abortion, scripture denying left, I gotta say waterboarding is probably not where we should be focused.
My, we do like our rhetoric don't we? I suggest that such name-calling is not really constructive. What you are doing here is trying to frame the issue in terms of an "us" vs "them". Let's look at the issue on its own merits, please.

Don't talk to me about torture of anyone while you vote in people who will burn a fetus chemically, in the womb.
I never said anything that any reasonable person would construe as support for, or even acceptance of abortion.

Do you approve of waterboarding?
 

Bro. Curtis

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I won't debate you. If you are going to call the Psalms sinful, then I find no desire or need to worry about what you think of me.
 

Crabtownboy

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Yes you have. You have said the baby isn't alive until the first breath.

I said that because that is what the Bible says.


And if you can use our savior to beat us over the head about waterboarding, then I can certainly bring up abortion. It would be great if we could speak up as much, if not more, about the unborn's life that the treatment of combat enemies. Then I'll let you bring up Christ's name unchallenged.

Beat "us over the heat" with Jesus. Wow, what a compliment and I do appreciate it. Is it wrong to show someone that what they are saying does not conform with the teachings of Jesus?
 
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Crabtownboy

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Actually legally, one would have the right to retailiate. Its called self defense.

You'd better believe one thing, if I'm attacked, cornered, or threatened, I fight back (win or lose).


And you just gave the best reason why waterboarding and torture by the USA is the best recruiting tool the terrorists have ... and if we stop, as Obama says we have, it takes that tool away. Thanks for helping make that point so clearly.
 
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