Waterboarding was a war crime in WW2. What's changed?

[OldRegular]

Again, credit where credit is due. On Face the Nation this morning, Sen. John McCain just said that the U.S., under Bush, violated the Geneva Conventions and the U.N. Convention Against Torture. He underscored his comments by saying that torture is wrong, counterproductive and doesn't work.

You thought so highly of McCain that you really voted for him, didn't you? I believe that you have been saying you voted for baby killer obama just to get a rise out of others.

 

[carpro]

You thought so highly of McCain that you really voted for him, didn't you? I believe that you have been saying you voted for baby killer obama just to get a rise out of others.

McCain has never been waterboarded or even seen it done. He is not a "torture expert".

 

[JustChristian]

You thought so highly of McCain that you really voted for him, didn't you? I believe that you have been saying you voted for baby killer obama just to get a rise out of others.

I respect McCain for his service to our country. I thought Obama was the better candidate. Since Republicans NEVER do anything aboiut abortion but simply say the right words that wasn't a relevant issue.

 

[EdSutton]

nevermind.

One of the better responses I've seen recently, at least in this forum!

Well said. :thumbsup:

Or shouldn't that really be :tear: ?

Ed

 

[windcatcher]

Well, since you seem to be unaware of the reasons Truman OK'd the bombs...you seem to think that there was another way to defeat the Japanese, that wouldn't involve the deaths of hundreds of thousands of US servicemen.

By all means, share the alternatives...

From January 1945 on there were many conversations both within the Japanexe War Cabinet..... The Big Six regarding surrender, and attempts to communicate conditions with the Allies who were firm that any surrender be unconditional. The Potsdam Declaration became the last word from the allies which gave conditions of surrender and warnings that non acceptance would ensure an attack which would bring about the destruction of Japan. July 27, 1945, the Japanese government stood firm and announced a policy of silence in reply. On July 30th and August 2, evidence shows that despite their silence in talking with the Allies about conditions of surrender, they were still talking among themselves trying to reconcile their differences with some stubbornly refusing terms of 'uncondition' and others concerned about their weakening strength and the threat of Russia entering the war against them as she had withdrawn from a previous treaty in April of that year.

Hiroshima was hit with the first Atomic Bomb on August 6, 1945, and on August 9, 1945, while in meeting, the Big Six received word of Russia's invasion of Manchuria, and the devestation of Nagasaki by another Atomic bomb.

Related to the OP of this thread is the incidence of information under torture noted in historical account as follows:

The full cabinet met on 14:30 on August 9, and spent most of the day debating surrender. Like the Big Six had already done, the cabinet split, with neither Tōgō's position nor Anami's attracting a majority.[76] Anami told the other cabinet ministers that, under torture, a captured American B-29 pilot had told his interrogators that the Americans possessed 100 atom bombs and that Tokyo and Kyoto would be bombed "in the next few days". The pilot, Marcus McDilda, was lying. He knew nothing of the Manhattan Project, and simply told his interrogators what he thought they wanted to hear in order to end the torture. The lie, which caused him to be classified as a high-priority prisoner, probably saved him from beheading.[77] In reality, the United States would have had the third bomb ready for use around August 19, and a fourth in September 1945.[78] The third bomb would probably have been used against Tokyo.[79]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan

While the information given by the soldier under torture and threat for his life was erroneous....... it is most interesting how well just a little bit of smarts on his part, totally ignorant of the Manhattan project, and educated guesses of consequences worked to both save his life in captivity, and increase the impact of the first two bombs upon the building horror of imminent destruction if the Big Six continued to ignore surrendering. There continued a hesitancy on their part to accept surrender, but:

At 12:00 noon Japan standard time on August 15, the Emperor's recorded speech to the nation, the Gyokuon-hōsō (Imperial Rescript on surrender), was broadcast:

In spite of the bitter tragedy of war and brutality suffered on both sides, its worthy to note that although unconditional surrender was required..... the terms of our acceptance afterward and humane treatment:

Japanese officials left for Manila on August 19 to meet Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers Douglas MacArthur, and to be briefed on his plans for the occupation. On August 28, 150 U.S. personnel flew to Atsugi, Kanagawa Prefecture, and the occupation of Japan began. They were followed by USS Missouri, whose accompanying vessels landed the 4th Marine Division on the southern coast of Kanagawa. Other Allied personnel followed.

MacArthur arrived in Tokyo on August 30, and immediately decreed several laws: No Allied personnel were to assault Japanese people. No Allied personnel were to eat the scarce Japanese food. Flying the Hinomaru or "Rising Sun" flag was initially severely restricted (although individuals and prefectural offices could apply for permission to fly it). The restriction would be partially lifted in 1948 and completely lifted the following year.

That is testimony to our treatment of a valiant and courageous, though misguided people.

We live in a fallen world. A world in which there will always be wars and rumours of wars. The treatment of soldiers in war, in combat and as prisoners is considerably different than the treatment of people caught in the act of terrorism and crimes: Still justice requires that the charges are brought forth with the evidence to convict them. Information received because of interrogation techniques, not available otherwise, which is self incriminating, if allowed at all concerning conviction, should carry the most lenient of consequences and be available for challenge on appeal. Our freedoms are best preserved both by exercising and by expecting and enforcing this recognition by others. Those who will stubbornly refuse to comply, not only snub the laws of God, but also the natural laws which holds civilizations and societies together in respect for life and justice. It may be that for those who's only language is brutality, cannot have any understanding except on their own terms.

I would not wish to be in charge of any decisions for the sake of my own conscience..... nor do I wish to be overly critical of others who have position and rank to make these difficult decisions and must live with their own conscience afterward. It is futile to charge them against Christian standards when for the most part many most likely aren't Christian: Therefore they are judged by the natural law..... or the laws implimented by governments and nations which have their foundations in natural law.

Our people and our nation has been so blest by God: I would to God that we would repent of our errors in deceiving and allowing ourselves to be deceived, in all the killings of innocents..... but most particularly the intentional killing of the unborn..... of the greed for money or our trust that it makes us secure...... or our willing deception to follow men instead of God and to trust men to solve the problems within society (economic, social, political) instead of first seeking the cousel and wisdom of God........ and in that repentance, turn back to God with committments which look to him for guidance in everything we do. I wish for the people of the world, that they could know Jesus!

 

[windcatcher]

I respect McCain for his service to our country. I thought Obama was the better candidate. Since Republicans NEVER do anything aboiut abortion but simply say the right words that wasn't a relevant issue.

Since Democrats NEVER do anything to stop abortions,
and they stop every attempt to regulate,
defund,
or educate the public regarding the risk to the mother, the hygiene and professional qualifications of their care, and the honest appriasel of options available to them during their gestation and for saving the life of their child......




it was for me as a Christian a VERY RELEVANT ISSUE.

 

[Crabtownboy]

McCain has never been waterboarded or even seen it done. He is not a "torture expert".

What world are you living in. Oh, yeah, I guess the Hoa Lo prison [Hanoi Hilton] where McCain was held was a five star hotel with a staff, guard, who treated everyone with kids gloves and responded positively to every request by the prisoners. Give me a break Carpo.

McCain experienced episodes of torture, and refused an out-of-sequence early repatriation offer. His war wounds left him with lifelong physical limitations.

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache...cain+vietnam+torture&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Nearly forty years ago, however - when McCain was held captive in a North Vietnamese prison camp - some of the same techniques were used on him. And - as McCain has publicly admitted at least twice - the torture worked!

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache...cain+vietnam+torture&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

[blackbird]

From January 1945 on there were many conversations both within the Japanexe War Cabinet..... The Big Six regarding surrender, and attempts to communicate conditions with the Allies who were firm that any surrender be unconditional. The Potsdam Declaration became the last word from the allies which gave conditions of surrender and warnings that non acceptance would ensure an attack which would bring about the destruction of Japan. July 27, 1945, the Japanese government stood firm and announced a policy of silence in reply. On July 30th and August 2, evidence shows that despite their silence in talking with the Allies about conditions of surrender, they were still talking among themselves trying to reconcile their differences with some stubbornly refusing terms of 'uncondition' and others concerned about their weakening strength and the threat of Russia entering the war against them as she had withdrawn from a previous treaty in April of that year.

Hiroshima was hit with the first Atomic Bomb on August 6, 1945, and on August 9, 1945, while in meeting, the Big Six received word of Russia's invasion of Manchuria, and the devestation of Nagasaki by another Atomic bomb.

Related to the OP of this thread is the incidence of information under torture noted in historical account as follows:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan


That is testimony to our treatment of a valiant and courageous, though misguided people.

We live in a fallen world. A world in which there will always be wars and rumours of wars. The treatment of soldiers in war, in combat and as prisoners is considerably different than the treatment of people caught in the act of terrorism and crimes: Still justice requires that the charges are brought forth with the evidence to convict them. Information received because of interrogation techniques, not available otherwise, which is self incriminating, if allowed at all concerning conviction, should carry the most lenient of consequences and be available for challenge on appeal. Our freedoms are best preserved both by exercising and by expecting and enforcing this recognition by others. Those who will stubbornly refuse to comply, not only snub the laws of God, but also the natural laws which holds civilizations and societies together in respect for life and justice. It may be that for those who's only language is brutality, cannot have any understanding except on their own terms.

Good post, Windcatcher!!!

Ironically-------during the whole Japanese ordeal from its beginning---with the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor---the United States and Britian did everything(including begging) to convince the Russians to declare war on Japan--------to which Stalin refused---------until, that is-----talks began on the correct method of dividing up land ceased during the war from Japan

Two weeks before its surrender to Allied forces----the Ruskies declared war on Japan----primarily to be able to cease captured land----IMO-the Russians were a bunch of "cheap-skates!!"

What somebody needs to here--------is to post us information concerning the treatment that both German and Japanese troops received from the United States as prisoners of war----include in the search---individual testamonies, please!!!

The way I see it--------the Germans looked at "surrender" as this------"Free food, free beer, free cigarettes------and best of all-----no bullets, no bombs from above, and no artillary or mortar fire as a prisoner------let me tie a white 'kerchief on this stick real quick!!!!!!!"----------the thing about it was------the German prisoners were enjoying a "Geneva Convention" requirement of 4,000 calorie diet on a daily basis---something they haven't seen since their inscription into the NAZI army----------while the American troops still fighting----where lucky to get a cold bisquit and a little wedge of cheese for breakfast!!!!!

 

[windcatcher]

Good post, Windcatcher!!!

Ironically-------during the whole Japanese ordeal from its beginning---with the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor---the United States and Britian did everything(including begging) to convince the Russians to declare war on Japan--------to which Stalin refused---------until, that is-----talks began on the correct method of dividing up land ceased during the war from Japan

Two weeks before its surrender to Allied forces----the Ruskies declared war on Japan----primarily to be able to cease captured land----IMO-the Russians were a bunch of "cheap-skates!!"

What somebody needs to here--------is to post us information concerning the treatment that both German and Japanese troops received from the United States as prisoners of war----include in the search---individual testamonies, please!!!

The way I see it--------the Germans looked at "surrender" as this------"Free food, free beer, free cigarettes------and best of all-----no bullets, no bombs from above, and no artillary or mortar fire as a prisoner------let me tie a white 'kerchief on this stick real quick!!!!!!!"----------the thing about it was------the German prisoners were enjoying a "Geneva Convention" requirement of 4,000 calorie diet on a daily basis---something they haven't seen since their inscription into the NAZI army----------while the American troops still fighting----where lucky to get a cold bisquit and a little wedge of cheese for breakfast!!!!!

Research takes time.

But in response to some of the content of your post...... I think that it is notable that for the most part, the character of our Soldiers and the conduct of our warfare involving other countries has maintained a degree of respect for human life and treatment of civilians and military captives and prisoners. We didn't follow the example of the Russians who destroyed whole villages and raped women and took the food out of bitterness and revenge. No doubt we used our own interrogation techniques when opportunity arose to question someone who had authority and probable knowledge as to the strength of their forces, or the route of supply, or the locations of war factories, or planned strategies. But how and to what extent they were encouraged to break with secrets, I've never heard talked about. I have heard of many reports of our soldiers being beaten, left hungry and cold, being fed vermin and bugs and refuse mixed in what food was given, being mained, burned, cut on, limbs pulled out of joint, kept in darkness, isolated in solitary, naked, bamboo under fingernails and fingernails pulled out.... and being given chemical agents to return them to consciousness after passing out so that torture could be prolonged. The Germans threw some prisoners along with their own people into the very concentration camps which killed the Jews: I've heard that the brutality of Hitler killed off 6 million Jews, and 12 million additional civilians...... many of whom either were secretly working to shelter and protect the Jews from persecution or were part of 'underground' subversives trying to bring down Hitler.

The dirtiest part of warfare that Americans ever fought was within our own country. While many may think that the treatment of the Indians was bad (and it was....), it was not nearly as bad as the destruction to towns, farms and communities, the violence against women and children, the destruction of homes and theft of food, done during the civil war. Still, it is worth noting that while some of the 'dirty war' occurred, it was patchy and often fought by those without leadership or discipline. Where there was leadership and order and ranks, on both sides, there was more respectable conduct..... even to the sharing of make shift hospital facilities with yanks and rebels bedded and treated side by side. However expediency was often used in dispatching the life of one caught as an enemy and suspected of being a spy.

Let us all hope that there will never be a repeat of Americans fighting Americans on our own soil ever again. For whatever the reasons which leads to such involve a break in unity and agreement with the constitution, a break in the morale of our country men to value and trust each other, and a division (such as through race, class, ethinicity, religion, or economics, or even taxation and politics) which is exaggerated and conflicted with purpose to disadvantage and control another. May God forever forbid!

 

[FollowHim]

Good post, Windcatcher!!!

Two weeks before its surrender to Allied forces----the Ruskies declared war on Japan----primarily to be able to cease captured land----IMO-the Russians were a bunch of "cheap-skates!!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties


Here are the numbers of solders killed in WW2:

1) Russia - 10,700,000

2) Germany - 5,533,000

2) China - 3,800,000

3) Japan - 2,120,000

4) Yugoslavia - 446,000

5) United States - 416,800

6) UK - 382,700

7) Italy - 301,400

8) Rumania - 300,000

9) Hungary - 300,000

10) Poland - 240,000

11) France - 217,600

-------------------------------------------------------------

I found some of these numbers hard to believe especially the ones for Yugoslavia, Hungary, and Rumania but it's obvious to me that it wasn't Russia who got the free ride. i was never aware that the allies lost a lot more men than did our enemies. You can judge for yourself.

 

[FollowHim]

Since Democrats NEVER do anything to stop abortions,
and they stop every attempt to regulate,
defund,
or educate the public regarding the risk to the mother, the hygiene and professional qualifications of their care, and the honest appriasel of options available to them during their gestation and for saving the life of their child......




it was for me as a Christian a VERY RELEVANT ISSUE.

It seems to me that it's a draw between the Dem and Rep. Why then be so obnoxious about supporting the Rep?

 

[windcatcher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by windcatcher
Since Democrats NEVER do anything to stop abortions,
and they stop every attempt to regulate,
defund,
or educate the public regarding the risk to the mother, the hygiene and professional qualifications of their care, and the honest appriasel of options available to them during their gestation and for saving the life of their child......




it was for me as a Christian a VERY RELEVANT ISSUE.

It seems to me that it's a draw between the Dem and Rep. Why then be so obnoxious about supporting the Rep?

The choices were more that you mention....... but many people follow a broad path no matter how it splits to deceive them.

That being said, still if you have only one party being the primary initiator and supporter of every attempt to regulate,
defund,
or educate the public regarding the risk to the mother, the hygiene and professional qualifications of their care, and the honest appriasel of options available to them during their gestation and for saving the life of their child......
legislative initiaves and sponsorship, and the other party flat out refuses any support....... I wouldn't call both the same.

But believe what you want. Defend who you will.
Both parties have corruption: Each on difference issues with different balances, and both with the same end game in mind.....
but I can see that people's minds are set. They see what they want and not what they don't.

It is not always that the information hasn't been presented......... if so then it would be so "they know not what they do'..... but it is a matter of choice and failure to think for themselves what is true... beyond what is popular (which in itself should ba a warning for those open to receiving what's true).

 

[FollowHim]

The choices were more that you mention....... but many people follow a broad path no matter how it splits to deceive them.

That being said, still if you have only one party being the primary initiator and supporter of every attempt to regulate,
defund,
or educate the public regarding the risk to the mother, the hygiene and professional qualifications of their care, and the honest appriasel of options available to them during their gestation and for saving the life of their child......
legislative initiaves and sponsorship, and the other party flat out refuses any support....... I wouldn't call both the same.

But believe what you want. Defend who you will.
Both parties have corruption: Each on difference issues with different balances, and both with the same end game in mind.....
but I can see that people's minds are set. They see what they want and not what they don't.

It is not always that the information hasn't been presented......... if so then it would be so "they know not what they do'..... but it is a matter of choice and failure to think for themselves what is true... beyond what is popular (which in itself should ba a warning for those open to receiving what's true).

I don't defend the Democrat's position on abortion. I simply point out the hypocrisy displayed by the Republicans to keep the conservative Christian vote.

 

[windcatcher]

I don't defend the Democrat's position on abortion. I simply point out the hypocrisy displayed by the Republicans to keep the conservative Christian vote.

That may be so.

But like the last election.... while many will blame 'the spoilers, the majority of them will complain later that they had no choice..... when they really did have choices...... and if that majority had made choices other than the two major parties....... it might not have changed the outcome...... but it would have made a statement of great dissatifaction with the status quo so that the new administration would have to take more into consideration rather than have an arrogant attitude that a mandate existed to rubber stamp everything they did.

We now really have one party control.

Perhaps it will give the other party a chance for some clock cleaning. Hopefully the few good folk among them will hold fast their positions until the people can give them more back up....... if that is possible.

 

[LadyEagle]

Since we have veered off topic of the OP and because this is on page 10, it is being closed as per forum rules.

Lady Eagle