Ways of Doing a Translation

[John of Japan]

While I'm waiting for Van to tell me how he would do a translation project :type:, I'll start discussion on the committee method.

As I see it, there are two major ways to run a translation committee. The first is when the committee meets for every aspect of the translation. One member may do the base translation of a book, or just a chapter at a time rotating between the members. (Jones does John 1, Smith does John 2, White does John 3, etc.) Then the committee meets regularly to go over and correct the base translation.

The committee in this scenario is usually bankrolled, because it takes a lot of time and effort to get things right. The source of funds may be a Bible society, a publishing company or a mission board.

The company-bankrolled version of the committee effort is what often takes place in the States when a new English version is produced. Frankly, there is money in Bibles and the publishing companies are willing to bankroll the scholars to produce the new English translation. If the publishing company is a non-profit organization, that's one thing. If it is a for-profit company, then the question must be asked, is God pleased with the effort to make money through His Word?

 

[Van]

1) Whose translation is it? The Lord's or the Translators?

2) Has JOJ told us the way many translation projects are conducted?

3) Here is a link to the kind of power struggle issues a clear and written understanding addresses.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct...-solve-wycliffes-two-year-translation-co.html

 

[John of Japan]

Here is part of what you originally said:

So, who is it who sets up the "set of translation guides," and who should have final authority over them?

So, please clarify. You're not making sense to me here. You seem to be saying that a group of "Elders" (church elders like the Presbyterians? older men with wisdom? who?) should run the translation instead of a translator. Is this what you mean? If so, how is this possible unless the elders know both the original and target languages?

Tell you what, this thread is about ways to do a translation. What might answer my questions best is if you simply tell how you would set things up if you were asked to do a translation. How would the committee be set up? Who would be in charge? What steps would be taken to translate a chapter, say John 3?

This was my clear post to Van with clear and definite questions. He refuses to answer it. My conclusion must be he doesn't know what he is talking about.

 

[John of Japan]

1) Whose translation is it? The Lord's or the Translators?

2) Has JOJ told us the way many translation projects are conducted?

3) Here is a link to the kind of power struggle issues a clear and written understanding addresses.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct...-solve-wycliffes-two-year-translation-co.html

Thank you for the link. It's an interesting article highlighting a controversy. But I asked for clarification and you've not answered a thing I asked you about.

 

[Van]

Hi JOJ, you seem to like to find fault and belittle others. I asked you questions and you did not answer them. Rather you addressed I that I did not tell you how I would manage a Bible Translation Project. I would not attempt to manage such a project.

Now I have actually managed (or helped to manage) a publication project providing instructions for the operation of equipment. One thing is clear, no matter how many guidelines and review/comment/incorporate cycles you have, if the guy writing the base document does not know what he is talking about, the product will be worthless, garbage in/garbage out.

It is becoming very clear JOJ likes to say others do not know what they are talking about. Yet he pretends not to understand "elders" refers to those in leadership positions or the need to work with others prayerfully to reach a consensus.

2 Corinthians 2:17 uses a word "kapēleuō" which carries two ideas. Someone who peddles an adulterated product for greedy purpose. Thus a wine seller who waters down the wine fits the bill. Spiritually, the idea is someone who waters down God's word, i.e. an ear tickler, to build up the number of followers and thus, to live well in the worldly sense.

We can contrast this with a workman being worthy, and someone who works hard at teaching others God's word being worthy of double honor, i.e. be well compensated.

Rather than setting up the translator or the funding source as final arbitrator, the Bible would suggest they come to a prayerful consensus, allowing the Holy Spirit to lead.

Thus at the outset, a set of translation guides should be agreed upon, so that the target, something accurate and usable for the targeted language people, is reached.

 

[John of Japan]

Hi JOJ, you seem to like to find fault and belittle others. I asked you questions and you did not answer them.

I asked for clarification so I could answer your points. You did not give it. Therefore I couldn't answer your questions.

Rather you addressed I that I did not tell you how I would manage a Bible Translation Project. I would not attempt to manage such a project.

Now I have actually managed (or helped to manage) a publication project providing instructions for the operation of equipment. One thing is clear, no matter how many guidelines and review/comment/incorporate cycles you have, if the guy writing the base document does not know what he is talking about, the product will be worthless, garbage in/garbage out.

It is becoming very clear JOJ likes to say others do not know what they are talking about.

Have you ever led or participated in a translation project of any kind? Do you speak any foreign languages? Do you read OT Hebrew or NT Greek? No? Then I'll say it again: you don't know what you are talking about. And I'm not embarrassed to say it. It's a simple statement of fact, though you seem to think it's an insult. Ignorance is not shameful. Professing knowledge or skills one does not have is shameful.

Yet he pretends not to understand "elders" refers to those in leadership positions or the need to work with others prayerfully to reach a consensus.

There was no pretense. "Elder" means different things in different contexts, even in the Bible. You didn't say what you meant by it. Now you have defined what you mean, thank you. But there's no need to say I'm pretending.

2 Corinthians 2:17 uses a word "kapēleuō" which carries two ideas. Someone who peddles an adulterated product for greedy purpose. Thus a wine seller who waters down the wine fits the bill. Spiritually, the idea is someone who waters down God's word, i.e. an ear tickler, to build up the number of followers and thus, to live well in the worldly sense.

So you disagree with the definition of kapeluo which I gave, correct? Can you source the definition you are giving?

Rather than setting up the translator or the funding source as final arbitrator, the Bible would suggest they come to a prayerful consensus, allowing the Holy Spirit to lead.

Our funding source for our new Japanese NT is not Japanese and does not speak or write Japanese. How then are they able to even contribute as to how we should translate, other than mandating the source text and translation method?

Thus at the outset, a set of translation guides should be agreed upon, so that the target, something accurate and usable for the targeted language people, is reached.

Agreed upon by who? The funding source and the translators? Once again, how is the funding source supposed to know what guidelines we should use in Japanese?

I submit that the "set of translation guides" should be decided on by the translators, not the funding organization.

 

[Van]

JOJ simply doubles down playing a dead hand. LOL

I asked questions he did not answer.

He seeks to disqualify the user from commenting on the product. When I take my car in to the dealership and say the radio is full of static, do they say do you know how to design a radio? Nope. Such an argument is nonsense.

He pretended not to know what Elder means, and now pretends the meaning was not clear. Such an assertion is nonsense.

He misinforms others saying I have claimed some expertize I do not have. Slander

Does he deny the definition I gave or simply ask for the source, as if he did not know the source. Again pretending ignorance. Did I say I disagreed with his definition or did he put words in my mouth.

Do you have a working agreement, or translation guidelines, or a review and comment process or do you see yourself as a lone ranger.

Finally rather that work for a consensus, JOJ claims he must be the final arbitrator. Unbridled pride.

Read the link, the people who could not read the translation were upset that "the Son of God" was removed because they ignorantly thought Christ's divinity was essential to the gospel.

 

[Mexdeaf]

nonsense

Slander

he put words in my mouth

Unbridled pride

After this falsely accusative post, I wouldn't blame JOJ if he ignores you from here on out.

But I have come to expect this of you, Van. You do not accept correction because you are always right.

 

[Van]

Hi Mexdeaf, I see you had nothing to say on the topic, but joined in on the Van bashing.

2 Corinthians 2:17 uses a word "kapēleuō" which carries two ideas. Someone who peddles an adulterated product for greedy purpose. Thus a wine seller who waters down the wine fits the bill. Spiritually, the idea is someone who waters down God's word, i.e. an ear tickler, to build up the number of followers and thus, to live well in the worldly sense.

We can contrast this with a workman being worthy, and someone who works hard at teaching others God's word being worthy of double honor, i.e. be well compensated.

Rather than setting up the translator or the funding source as final arbitrator, the Bible would suggest they come to a prayerful consensus, allowing the Holy Spirit to lead.

Thus at the outset, a set of translation guides should be agreed upon, so that the target, something accurate and usable for the targeted language people, is reached.

Read the link, the people who could not read the translation were upset that "the Son of God" was removed because they ignorantly thought Christ's divinity was essential to the gospel.

 

[John of Japan]

I asked questions he did not answer.

I would be happy to answer your questions as soon as you answer mine.

He seeks to disqualify the user from commenting on the product. When I take my car in to the dealership and say the radio is full of static, do they say do you know how to design a radio? Nope. Such an argument is nonsense.

You are a user of the Japanese Bible? I certainly don't disqualify you from using any English Bible you want to.

He pretended not to know what Elder means, and now pretends the meaning was not clear. Such an assertion is nonsense.

It's still not clear. Do you mean pastors? Older businessmen? Institutional leaders who are older? Any of these could be inferred from your usage.

Do you have a working agreement, or translation guidelines, or a review and comment process or do you see yourself as a lone ranger.

I am what is called the lead translator in our new Japanese NT, but there have been many other translators, a proof reader, an art man, an editor who put the ruby marks on and made the decision on the pilot version of John (and what books to publish first), etc. I did the base translation and lead the second draft. My Japanese translation partner set the literary style and target literacy level. The financial backer guarantees the source text and translation method (word-for-word) to the givers and users.

In every step of the way, we have prayed and sought to be led by the Holy Spirit. He has brought the right people together in the right timing. It's been wonderful to see Him work. I'm certainly not in charge of this translation effort--God is.

Lone Ranger? Nope.

Finally rather that work for a consensus, JOJ claims he must be the final arbitrator.

I have never claimed this. See above for how our translation is being done.

Unbridled pride.

You can accuse me of that, of course, based on your uninformed assumptions. But I'll tell you plainly that being a Bible translator is the most humbling thing I've ever done.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Hi Mexdeaf, I see you had nothing to say on the topic, but joined in on the Van bashing.

Has it ever occurred to you that those doing the so-called "bashing" might actually be trying to help you see a side of yourself that you are blind to?

There's no shame involved in admitting that you have a blind spot and need help to see it- everyone has blind spots, including me. I have been reprimanded many times on here and must say that I am the better for it.

 

[Van]

Has it ever occurred to you that those doing the so-called "bashing" might actually be trying to help you see a side of yourself that you are blind to?

There's no shame involved in admitting that you have a blind spot and need help to see it- everyone has blind spots, including me. I have been reprimanded many times on here and must say that I am the better for it.

Who do you think you are deceiving? This thread has a topic. You are simply bashing. You are a waste of time.

 

[Van]

I would be happy to answer your questions as soon as you answer mine.
You are a user of the Japanese Bible? I certainly don't disqualify you from using any English Bible you want to.
It's still not clear. Do you mean pastors? Older businessmen? Institutional leaders who are older? Any of these could be inferred from your usage.
I am what is called the lead translator in our new Japanese NT, but there have been many other translators, a proof reader, an art man, an editor who put the ruby marks on and made the decision on the pilot version of John (and what books to publish first), etc. I did the base translation and lead the second draft. My Japanese translation partner set the literary style and target literacy level. The financial backer guarantees the source text and translation method (word-for-word) to the givers and users.

In every step of the way, we have prayed and sought to be led by the Holy Spirit. He has brought the right people together in the right timing. It's been wonderful to see Him work. I'm certainly not in charge of this translation effort--God is.

Lone Ranger? Nope.

I have never claimed this. See above for how our translation is being done.
You can accuse me of that, of course, based on your uninformed assumptions. But I'll tell you plainly that being a Bible translator is the most humbling thing I've ever done.

Selected nonsense: You are a user of the Japanese Bible? Submitting to the Elders appointed to rule the local church is beyond JOJ comprehension. Note I defined the term several posts ago, so feigned ignorance yet again.

So your translation is being done via a prayerful consensus. Why did this take so long to admit? So my view is vindicated rather than being "uninformed." After all, as I said at the outset, it is the method presented in the Bible for Christians working together in the ministry of Christ.

 

[John of Japan]

Selected nonsense: You are a user of the Japanese Bible? Submitting to the Elders appointed to rule the local church is beyond JOJ comprehension. Note I defined the term several posts ago, so feigned ignorance yet again.

Now you are accusing me once again of "feigned ignorance." This means you are calling me a liar, since I plainly said I did not understand what you meant. I was being completely honest and told why I was asking.

Now, you finally say you mean "Elders appointed to rule the local church." This is still ambiguous. Are you speaking of an "elder run church" or the pastor of the usual congregational church as an elder? Please be plain, because from what you have said so far I really and truly don't know. I'm not pretending anything. I truly don't know what your view of the elder "appointed to rule the local church" is. How could I?

Personally, I oppose the "elder run" church government as done in the Presbyterian way (and there are various definitions of the method) as being un-Biblical. I believe the pastor (sometimes called an elder in Scripture) is the God-called "elder" to lead the local church.

Now, if I may try (and I am honestly asking this, not feigning anything) and learn more about your position, are you saying then that all translation efforts should be under the umbrella of a local church?

So your translation is being done via a prayerful consensus. Why did this take so long to admit? So my view is vindicated rather than being "uninformed." After all, as I said at the outset, it is the method presented in the Bible for Christians working together in the ministry of Christ.

"Admit it"? I didn't admit anything. I did nothing wrong! :laugh:

I'm simply informing you of how our work here in Japan is being done in hopes that you will then discuss the actual topic, which is not about my particular effort.

 

[jonathan.borland]

Personally, I oppose the "elder run" church government as done in the Presbyterian way (and there are various definitions of the method) as being un-Biblical. I believe the pastor (sometimes called an elder in Scripture) is the God-called "elder" to lead the local church.

There is a historical precedent for single head pastors: James leading the Jerusalem church, Timothy the Ephesian, Ignatius the Antiochian, Polycarp the Smyrnan, etc.

Interesting posts on Bible translation processes, btw, and from one who has depth of practical experience in the field! Thank you!

 

[John of Japan]

Submitting to the Elders appointed to rule the local church is beyond JOJ comprehension. Note I defined the term several posts ago, so feigned ignorance yet again.

So your translation is being done via a prayerful consensus. Why did this take so long to admit? So my view is vindicated rather than being "uninformed." After all, as I said at the outset, it is the method presented in the Bible for Christians working together in the ministry of Christ.

I just re-read the thread. Your definition of "elder" is in post #25:

It is becoming very clear JOJ likes to say others do not know what they are talking about. Yet he pretends not to understand "elders" refers to those in leadership positions or the need to work with others prayerfully to reach a consensus.

This was ambiguous. So now you have qualified your definition as being elders of the church, something you did not say before. Thank you. Please clarify some more: do you mean elder as the pastor, or as a board of elders in addition to the pastor, men who rule the church (meaning the pastor does not)? Now frankly, I've never heard of a Bible translation effort, missionary or homeland, being supervised by a local church, so it will help if you expand your explanation.

This is an entirely honest request for clarification. I'm an honest man. I don't "feign" misunderstanding. It will help the discussion if you answer honestly and helpfully.

 

[John of Japan]

There is a historical precedent for single head pastors: James leading the Jerusalem church, Timothy the Ephesian, Ignatius the Antiochian, Polycarp the Smyrnan, etc.

Interesting posts on Bible translation processes, btw, and from one who has depth of practical experience in the field! Thank you!

You're welcome. Stay tuned!

 

[John of Japan]

Another version of the committee effort is the way the KJV was translated, and I believe the way the major English translations are produced: ESV, HCSB, NASB, etc. This method takes tremendous time and money, and is not possible for low budget, low personnel efforts, as most missionary efforts are. It usually takes a large publishing company to support and finish this type of effort.

The base translation may be done by one person. (Dr. David Alan Black did the whole NT base translation for the ISV.) The various books are then revised by separate committees in various locales. In the best version of this method, the files are shared between committees, not for wholesale revision but for comments and corrections.

A committee at A Seminary may handle the Gospels, one at B Bible College may do half of the Pauline epistles and one at C College the rest. Several scholars in NY may meet regularly for the book of Acts. Another committee at D Seminary will work on the general epistles and finally the staff at E Mega-Church (with their own college) may work on Revelation.

In the case of the KJV, the base translation was to be the Bishop's Bible. There were 54 translators appointed, but only 47 listed later. They were divided into six groups: two working at Westminster, two at Oxford, two at Cambridge. They were given 16 rules to follow (not too many so as to unduly rule the translators). This effort produced an incredible version as we all know. (Information from The Ancestry of our English Bible, by Ira Price. Kind of old, being from 1906 and revised in 1934, but very scholarly for the day.)

The interesting thing about this is that, as much as so many of us Baptists love and respect the KJV nowadays, even Peter Ruckman wouldn't agree in modern times to a translation committee like this on a mission field! I'd be laughed out of the building if I approached the typical Baptist institution and suggested that we get the Emperor of Japan to sponsor a new translation! :type:

 

[Van]

Folks, many verses mention Elders. In translating the term, a person must study the term, see how it is used elsewhere, and then to claim to be ignorant that it refers to leaders of the local church is absurd.

Now you are accusing me once again of "feigned ignorance." This means you are calling me a liar, since I plainly said I did not understand what you meant. I was being completely honest and told why I was asking.

please clarify. You're not making sense to me here. You seem to be saying that a group of "Elders" (church elders like the Presbyterians? older men with wisdom? who?) should run the translation instead of a translator. Is this what you mean?

Thus we have "feigned ignorance" on display. Did I say the Elders should run the project or provide oversight and guidance?

Rather than setting up the translator or the funding source as final arbitrator, the Bible would suggest they come to a prayerful consensus, allowing the Holy Spirit to lead.

Thus at the outset, a set of translation guides should be agreed upon, so that the target, something accurate and usable for the targeted language people, is reached.

 

[Van]

If a person wanted to play games and feign ignorance, one could ask JOJ if his understanding of Elders is a group of very old Presbyterian Calvinists. Anyone can misrepresent and claim ambiguity when stonewalling. LOL