Ways of Doing a Translation

[Van]

Here is a link to the kind of power struggle issues a clear and written understanding addresses.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/...lation-co.html

The issue was the translators took Son of God out and replaced it with Christ to reduce the conflict with Islam, but the funding authority though Christ's divinity was an essential of the gospel.

 

[John of Japan]

Folks, many verses mention Elders. In translating the term, a person must study the term, see how it is used elsewhere, and then to claim to be ignorant that it refers to leaders of the local church is absurd.

Thus we have "feigned ignorance" on display. Did I say the Elders should run the project or provide oversight and guidance?

If a person wanted to play games and feign ignorance, one could ask JOJ if his understanding of Elders is a group of very old Presbyterian Calvinists. Anyone can misrepresent and claim ambiguity when stonewalling. LOL

Since Van would rather harp on what he thinks is my dishonesty, and refuses to debate, I'll not answer him any more on this thread--unless he gets over it, then maybe I will. But he seems to be here just to harass. How boring.

The wife and I are leaving this morning (Tues. morning right now in Japan) to go to a retreat where I'm preaching. It will be good to get away and see my friends Pastor Honbo, Missionary Randy and others.

I'll be back to discuss more translation effort methods Wed. evening (Wed. morning in the US). There are several more to go, including the ways missionaries do it. :type:

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Thanks to John of Japan

Bro. John....I'd like to thank you for the informed and gentlemanly way in which you conduct yourself on this Board. You and your very informative and doctrinally sound posts are at least part of the reason that I continue my presence on the BB. I appreciate your knowledge and your experience on the field which you labor in the service of our Lord and I look forward to and enjoy reading your posts and the sound Christian perspective that they offer. I feel safe in saying that your presence here is a blessing to most of the members of this board. You are a blessing and I thank God for your faithfulness. You and your wife and family are in my prayers as you labor on the field of service the Lord has called you too and placed you in. I'm sure that the translation work you have been laboring in will be blessed and used of God to reach many in the land of Japan. That is indeed my prayer. I count you as my friend and brother in Christ and look forward to meeting up with you someday (most likely on the other side!) Don't let the naysayers and critics here get you down....keep up the good work and the great posts!:thumbsup:

Bro.Greg Perry Sr.:saint:

 

[Mexdeaf]

Vaya con Dios, John and enjoy your meeting. I appreciate your perspective on this issue.

 

[Van]

Here is an interesting link to an article discussing some fairly new computer translation assist programs.

http://www.ubs-translations.org/fileadmin/publications/tbt/practical/BT-62-2-2011-Gross.pdf

 

[Van]

There is a historical precedent for single head pastors: James leading the Jerusalem church, Timothy the Ephesian, Ignatius the Antiochian, Polycarp the Smyrnan, etc.

Interesting posts on Bible translation processes, btw, and from one who has depth of practical experience in the field! Thank you!

There is a historical precedent for cults to be started by an individual like L Ron Hubbard.

The leader of the Elders might not be fixed, but rotate, like a high Priest, so James might not have been a one man band.

"Congregational polity is sometimes called "Baptist polity", as it is the characteristic polity of Baptist churches." (Wikipedia)

The Elders (leaders such as pastors and lay teachers) report to the congregation, at business meetings, and they (the Elders) make recommendations (budget approval, major purchase, calling a staff member, i.e. pastor or business agent), but they (Elders) are responsible for the day to day operation of the church ministries. Thus the membership confirms the Elder consensus.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Incredible!

"There is a historical precedent for cults to be started by an individual like L Ron Hubbard."

Van...I don't know why you seem to have such a "burr in your saddle" in regards to Bro.John but I have watched all of this I can without making comment and NOW it is time....I think to even introduce a statement such as the one above as a "suggestive comparison" to the work of a faithful servant of the Lord such as JoJ is both offensive and completely uncalled for. I believe you definitely should repent and ask the Lord to forgive you AFTER you have gone to brother John and asked him to do the same. I'm not in any way trying to "exalt" or "put on a pedestal" bro.John, but rather, defend him as a faithful brother in Christ. You just need to apologize. That is all I wish to say about this matter.:tear: I shall now commit it to prayer.raying:

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[Mexdeaf]

Bro.Greg:saint:

^^^^ What he said.

 

[Rippon]

There is a historical precedent for cults to be started by an individual like L Ron Hubbard.

That is a disgraceful linkage that you are putting forward Van.

The leader of the Elders might not be fixed, but rotate, like a high Priest, so James might not have been a one man band.

"Congregational polity is sometimes called "Baptist polity", as it is the characteristic polity of Baptist churches." (Wikipedia)

The Elders (leaders such as pastors and lay teachers) report to the congregation, at business meetings, and they (the Elders) make recommendations (budget approval, major purchase, calling a staff member, i.e. pastor or business agent), but they (Elders) are responsible for the day to day operation of the church ministries. Thus the membership confirms the Elder consensus.

What has any of the above have to do with the price of ducks in China?

You still have not answered central questions that Joj brought up.

What kind of governing can a group of elders do with a translation in which the committee may have no knowledge of the original or even the target language? The translation is in the hands of the translators. It is not arrogance at all, but of necessity.

From your posts here and elsewhere I have learned that you will never admit you are ever wrong --even when all evidence is against you. When we oppose your ideas it does not mean we oppose the Lord Himself!

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Yes!!!

That is a disgraceful linkage that you are putting forward Van.



What has any of the above have to do with the price of ducks in China?

You still have not answered central questions that Joj brought up.

What kind of governing can a group of elders do with a translation in which the committee may have no knowledge of the original or even the target language? The translation is in the hands of the translators. It is not arrogance at all, but of necessity.

From your posts here and elsewhere I have lrearned that you will never admit you are ever wrong --even when all evidence is against you. When we oppose your ideas it does not mean we oppose the Lord Himself!

Well said Bro. Rippon!...Imagine that...you and I actually agreeing on something. Personally, I find that rather refreshing.:laugh::thumbs: They say that "even a blind squirrel finds a nut occasionally" (just joking!)

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[Rippon]

In every step of the way, we have prayed and sought to be led by the Holy Spirit. He has brought the right people together in the right timing. It's been wonderful to see Him work. I'm certainly not in charge of this translation effort--God is.

But I'll tell you plainly that being a Bible translator is the most humbling thing I've ever done.

Martin Luther and other translators have indicated as much.

I wish Van would acknowledge the truth of what you have said.

 

[Revmitchell]

I wish Van would acknowledge the truth of what you have said.

Why? Why can't you just be comfortable with Van believing what he does without you wishing he believed anything else. Why is it so important to you?

 

[Rippon]

Why? Why can't you just be comfortable with Van believing what he does without you wishing he believed anything else. Why is it so important to you?

Because he has hardened himself and needs to acknowlege that he is wrong sometimes --like the rest of us --even you RM.

 

[Revmitchell]

Because he has hardened himself and needs to acknowlege that he is wrong sometimes --like the rest of us --even you RM.

That is not my place to insist on that or yours.

 

[Rippon]

That is not my place to insist on that or yours.

I find it interesting that you have the habit of making posts which have nothing to do with threads. Care to comment on "Ways of doing a translation"?

 

[Mexdeaf]

I'm just a yahoo here, but I'd really, truly appreciate it if we could let John just share his thoughts with us and void this peripheral stuff. Thanks.

 

[Van]

Truth matters!

Van...I don't know why you seem to have such a "burr in your saddle" in regards to Bro.John but I have watched all of this I can without making comment and NOW it is time....I think to even introduce a statement such as the one above as a "suggestive comparison" to the work of a faithful servant of the Lord such as JoJ is both offensive and completely uncalled for. I believe you definitely should repent and ask the Lord to forgive you AFTER you have gone to brother John and asked him to do the same. I'm not in any way trying to "exalt" or "put on a pedestal" bro.John, but rather, defend him as a faithful brother in Christ. You just need to apologize. That is all I wish to say about this matter.:tear: I shall now commit it to prayer.raying:

Bro.Greg:saint:

The item you sliced and diced from my post was addressed not to JOJ, but to Jonathan.borland. It was addressing church polity.

I did not suggest or imply this observation had application to JOJ. Me thinks you protest too much.

Why manufacture complaints about my behavior while remaining silent on the topic of the thread. I like JOJ and his contributions to this forum, but when I believe he is off base, I present my view as I did in post #11. Note it was on topic and did not belittle JOJ.

I believe we could do a far better job of translation and that is the burr under my saddle.

 

[Van]

If we continue to use our current system, the goal of Bible translation will never be achieved. In fact, we will continue to fall farther and farther behind the needs. I have therefore described the present system as “old translation,” and we need to develop a “new translation.” We need to look for new ways of doing things, to find ways to accomplish the translation task more efficiently, more quickly, and more cheaply. The only way to do that, I suggest, is to “democratise” translation, that is, to take it out of the hands of experts and entrust the task to the people by enabling and empowering them to do it. Just as people like Wyclif, Tyndale, and
Luther tried to empower the common people to be able to understand the Holy Scriptures in the late Middle Ages by democratising the Scriptures through their translations, so we need to empower more ordinary people to embark on the task of translation.

This quote is from the linked article.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

After further investigation.....

The item you sliced and diced from my post was addressed not to JOJ, but to Jonathan.borland. It was addressing church polity.

I did not suggest or imply this observation had application to JOJ. Me thinks you protest too much.

Why manufacture complaints about my behavior while remaining silent on the topic of the thread. I like JOJ and his contributions to this forum, but when I believe he is off base, I present my view as I did in post #11. Note it was on topic and did not belittle JOJ.

I believe we could do a far better job of translation and that is the burr under my saddle.

Van..after going back and re-reading all the previous posts....you are correct....I did have that wrong about who your post was addressed to. Don't know how I missed that but I did and I apologize for all to see.

That said and done though I will make this observation. From my understanding of what I read, Jonathan.Borland was (in my opinion) agreeing with or offering supporting examples of JoJ's "take" on church government and authority as opposed to a Presbyterian form of "elder rule". To make the comment like you plainly did comparing what he (JoJ) and Bro.Borland were supportive of to the type of Cult mentality of L.Ron Hubbard was still improper. By the same token you could easily indict many faithful, Bible believing Pastors and teachers who actually are true to the Book and the Lord. That is just my opinion. I myself greatly appreciate Bro. Himes and all the faithful work he and his wife are doing in Japan. I also appreciate his presence on this Board. Just MHO.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[John of Japan]

Bro. John....I'd like to thank you for the informed and gentlemanly way in which you conduct yourself on this Board. You and your very informative and doctrinally sound posts are at least part of the reason that I continue my presence on the BB. I appreciate your knowledge and your experience on the field which you labor in the service of our Lord and I look forward to and enjoy reading your posts and the sound Christian perspective that they offer. I feel safe in saying that your presence here is a blessing to most of the members of this board. You are a blessing and I thank God for your faithfulness. You and your wife and family are in my prayers as you labor on the field of service the Lord has called you too and placed you in. I'm sure that the translation work you have been laboring in will be blessed and used of God to reach many in the land of Japan. That is indeed my prayer. I count you as my friend and brother in Christ and look forward to meeting up with you someday (most likely on the other side!) Don't let the naysayers and critics here get you down....keep up the good work and the great posts!:thumbsup:

Bro.Greg Perry Sr.:saint:

Thank you for the kind words!

And thanks to several of you who have said you appreciate my perspective.

We had a great time at the retreat, with good fellowship with our friends and the believers. After we got back in town, Patty and I stopped to get a Starbucks (ice vanilla latte for me), then worked at the church for awhile. We went out for katsudon, a delicious dish of pork cutlet on a bed of rice and egg and Asian veggies, then had our prayer meeting.