Flesh and bones assumes blood. This is a matter of basic biology. I think I am done here.
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We shall be like Him. This Means...
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Flesh and bones assumes blood. This is a matter of basic biology. I think I am done here.
My view differs greatly from the gnostics. Gnostics believe the physical world is inherently evil. The Bible teaches that the physical world, though less important than spiritual reality, is also a blessing to be enjoyed.
Jesus, as our eternal High Priest after the order of Melchizedek, still acts as the one mediator according to 1 Timothy 2:5
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; "
But, like I wrote above, our humanity is not lost when our physical bodies (bones, flesh, and blood) are lost. Otherwise people who die cease to be human.
So our Savior being "the man Christ Jesus" in no way requires physicality. It is just our man-made tradition that makes us think so.
Show me a verse where "resurrection" as it pertains to believers "clearly means a physical bodily resumption of life".
These are two very appropriate verses for this discussion but I am not sure why you give them to me. As a rebuttal of my OP?
Yes, certainly 1 Cor. 15:50 applies to Jesus as well. How could it be otherwise?
I think it is best that we define New Testament phrases mainly from the New Testament, in this case the Book of Hebrews. Several passages assume the days of His flesh to be His life of perfect obedience, saving death on the cross, and resurrection from the dead.
His ongoing work in our present age as the eternal High Priest is not included. There is no need. His taking on flesh was part of the temporary but necessary humility of His Messianic purpose.
We do not think of being in the flesh as a humiliation because we are so involved in it.
Well I was going to try again to defend my position but have decided I can't and here is why I say that;
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
However we do have this.
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1 Cor 15:35-44
I think I can show from scripture each of those points in verses 42-44 applied to Christ also.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
To date verse 46 can only apply to Jesus of Nazareth for to my knowledge according to scripture, he is the only man born of woman, to have died and been raised to die no more and no more to return to corruption.
Therefore, I am not sure where that leaves me relative to the OP.
Also we know;
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, <our present physical body of corruptible flesh) we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
Now I believe for those alive at his appearing their physical mortal corruptible body will be changed into something, immortal, incorruptible ie spiritual and for those who have died, resurrection out of the dead must take place, in order to be, immortal, incorruptible.
BTW a very interesting subject.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
You point is no body exist. The verse says into His glorious body. A body is still a body. One is vile. The other is glorious.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
That is what the word “resurrection” means. When Paul preachers in Athens, they listen to him until he mentions the resurrection. They clearly understood what the word meant.
You are simply redefining biblical words to fit your theology. A bad habit to get into, to be sure.
peace to you
37818
Well-Known Member
Fine. We do disagree.
The Athenians ridiculed the very idea of resurrection, not the special meaning you are giving to it of "physical".
You are simply redefining biblical words to fit your theology. Can you not consider that possibility?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
No, Tom, I’m telling you what the word “resurrection” has meant for 2000 years. You are redefining the word to fit your theology.
peace to you
I appreciate that you are taking the time and effort to think and study out this topic. I agree that it is a very interesting and important one. I also try to be careful not to write more than what I can back up.
Later on today I hope to get back to this but for now I want to just focus on the phrase you have bolded. I think this is a very significant clue that many too quickly pass over.
But the unpacking of this phrase means that if the resurrected body that Jesus demonstrated to the Apostles was the pattern of the future bodies of those Apostles - and all Christians - then John would not have written what he did. He might have written something like, "Beloved, we shall be as He appeared to us after His resurrection."
Okay, fine. Take are.
Just a guess, but let's say Jesus the Christ has been resurrected out of the dead for about 1991 years and the following verses refer to the resurrection of Jesus the Christ;
“he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul (Literally, the soul of him) was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh (Literally, the flesh of him) see corruption. “This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. Acts 2:31,32
What, relative to the dead Jesus the Christ, should have been believed relative to being resurrected and in what manner?
Should it have been believed, the soul Jesus the Christ was resurrected, out of the realm of the dead ones, in flesh incorruptible?
Isn't that exactly what took place, of the fruit of the body of David, according to the flesh, Jesus of Nazareth?
The soul that sins, it shall die.
Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Not to get too deep into the weeds, but “soul” and “spirit” are sometimes used interchangeably in scripture. Sometimes “soul” is used to refer to a complete human being, ie both body and spirit.
The verse you are referencing from Acts, in context, simply means Jesus didn’t stay dead. He was resurrected (physical body United with His Spirit) and His body was glorified (becoming incorruptible) never to die again.
He still has that same body in heaven today, where He ascended to make intercession for us.
What the actual “biological” composition of that body is (or even if it is biological) we don’t know.
What we do know it is a physical body, immortal, incorruptible because scripture says it is and that’s the same kind of glorified body we will have. He isn’t just “Spirit” and He isn’t just “body”, He has a “spiritual body” which denotes the presence of both physical body and spirit.
peace to you
I have stated before in reality I am an uneducated man therefore, could you point out to me where in scriptures, ψυχή. has been translated spirit?
Are they not two totally different things?
Let me ask.
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? Ecc 3:19-21
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity. Ecc 12:7
Reletive to Ecc 3 passage and the time it was written what happened to the souls of the sons of men?
Was the spirit of the beasts also from God as breath of life?
I underlined vanity because of the following verse which I believe took place before man sinned, through the manner he was created and the law he was given, thou shall not eat of it.
for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope, Rom 8:20
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Well, right off hand I would point to the creation. In both Hebrew and kone Greek, the word for “spirit” is the same word for “breath, wind”.
So God breathed (breath, spirit) and man became a living soul. In this passage you see the “complete” man, spirit and flesh, is referred to as a living soul.
I would have to do some more research for more examples.
peace to you
I edited the post this is referred to, please re-read.
As to yours above, was what became soul living a combination of what was made from the ground along with the breath of life from God?
Is not that breath of life from God, said to be the breath of the spirit of lives in Gen 7:22
I do not think that is a good example.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Well, again there is a play on the word “breath/spirit” in Genesis. I do believe the phrase “living soul” refers to the human body God had just created and the “spirit” that God had just “breathed” into that body to give it life.
In regard to the passage from Ecc. I don’t believe animals have a “spirit” as mankind does. In that case “breath” means they are alive.
Solomon makes the point all mankind die, just as animals die. All return to dust. He seems unsure about an after life for people or animals in chapter 3, but in chapter 12 affirms the spirits of men return to God who gave them.
Sorry, I haven’t had time to look for more examples as of yet. Thanks for the questions.
peace to you
37818
Well-Known Member
There are two views on this. Dichotomous two part view, where the body with the soul and spirit are really the same immaterial part of man. And trichotomous three part view, where man is body, soul and spirit.