We Want Ameica Back.

gb93433, I agree with what you are saying.

I did not mean to make light of slavery and I am thankful it has now been abolished in many countries.

It just seems we do the argument an injustice if we claim or appear to claim the Bible says something definitive such as "Thou shalt not have slaves... but thou shalt have life, liberty, and justice for all..."

I think you are right about the historical effect on an area. The Wesleys apparently passed through my home town of Newbury, England, on a number of occasions. They claimed it was one of the most spiritually oppressive areas they encountered and believed it was because of prevelant witch craft. Even now I would say Newbury is an spiritually oppressive area.

Without even realising it we have long memories and our distant past does impact us.

 

Uh, this was not just the "South" that pretended to biblically justify the institution of slavery. Pretty much the whole of Western civilization, including most of the northern colonies. They are currently excavating the slave quarters attached to the president's house in Philadelphia (the city of freedom!), within site of Independence Hall and the Liberty Bell. Philadelphia still suffers great racial divide.

There is an old Dutch Reformed church in the center of the slave fortress in Cape Coast, Ghana. The Dutch put their church right in the center of their evil, and for a very long time, the church said nothing!

But here's a bigger question regarding slavery... Some of the goods that we buy and use are produced by workers in other nations who are treated WORSE than slaves were. How are we using the greatness of the American nation to bring true justice around the world?

 

You'll be scouring libraries for several lifetimes before you can document that.

There's no need to lie about other Christians. Just disagree calmly.

 

You hit that nail on the head.

 

Would this links be relevant? Here are some sample texts with the links below:

"For example, through the late 1700s, Reverend William Graham was rector and principle instructor at the Liberty Hall Academy, now Washington and Lee University in Lexington, Virginia. Every year, he lectured the senior graduating class on the value of slavery and used the Bible in his defense of it." http://atheism.about.com/library/weekly/aa112598.htm

This paper - http://anduril.ca/PDFs/Slavery.pdf - covers the topic well in its section called "The Religious Justification"

And http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-145473606.html

 

You are right. It was later an issue between the north and south.

 

I think it is passed from one generation to the next unless something major happens that severely disrupts the area.

There are examples in the US of what you described as a cloud being over the area. It seems like sin likes to find a comfortable home where it can be encouraged.

 

I'm starting a new thread on that topic, not wanting to hijack this one.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=40211

Ralph, excellent post! :thumbs:

 

No, I did not forget to address slavery, see post #21 gb93433!

However, you are simply making a divisive and quite erroneous statement by putting all the blame on the South. Which in manner has nothing to do with the O.P. and detracts from it as it is speaking about America's past versus today and not events of the Civil War! I see Lady Eagle has properly started a thread in that regards and that other posters have corrected your fallacious statement. As slavery was prevalent in both the North and South with opponents and proponents both using the Bible to justify their stance. However, to point out a couple things 1)No slave ever entered into America under a CSA flag ship but instead under ??? 2) Slavery was something introduced to America by the British for which many in the North and South appalled. 3) the North introduced the hypocritical emancipation proclamation 4) As I understand the North discouraged blacks, or did not encourage them, from moving to the North after the Civil War. You will have to confirm that yourself but I would encourage you to look at State demographics as you may be surprised.

The North and South were both wrong as slavery is wrong, but if you want to blame the South more than so be it, only it has nothing to do with the O.P as such.

take care:wavey:

 

You are right. My understanding is that the US had slavery but when the north had the industrial revolution they no longer needed slaves. Later it became more of an economic issue causing a division between the north and south. The issue became divisive among Baptists between the north and south.

 

You are right. No not all of the blame can be put on the south. The north had plenty of it too. Whoever has a problem needs to own it and do something to make the necessary change.

Billy Graham who is from the south took a direct stance against it. I believe what he did sent a strong message to all of the pastors and people everywhere that what was being done was wrong. If anyone is sending out a message of hope and righteousness shouldn't it be the church?

 

Well, it looks like we are going to continue to talk about slavery on this thread, instead of the OP. That being the case, who gets the blame for the blacks and arabs who SOLD and KIDNAPPED the black African slaves to the Europeans and Americans? No one ever mentions that fact - it's always the "white" man's fault. Sorry, but this peeves me.

And, like someone indicated earlier, while we get all self-righteous and sanctimonious and pat ourselves on the back because we have legally abolished slavery in this country, we still contribute to the world-wide problem of slavery, human trafficking, when we continue to indulge our materialistic appetites by buying cheap goods at cheap prices (like Wal-Mart) from other countries (like China). So we are all guilty. As guilty as the immoral elected leaders who talk about the problem, but encourage it to continue by granting Normal Trade Relations with countries who practice not only slavery, but human rights violations of all kinds. So we are all guilty and have nothing to feel sanctimonious about. And no, we didn't have this situation back in the 1950s and 1960s.

Now will someone explain to me how the historical American slavery that was abolished decades ago, has contributed to the present moral American decline of taking God out of the public square, the genocide of millions of unborn American babies in the womb, gun violence and shootings in our public schools, increased rapes and murders in our neighborhoods, increased use of street drugs among our young people, the highest divorce rate in America's history, resulting in the most single parent families in American history, AIDS epidemic, "gay rights" and more? Who wouldn't long for the Mayberry of yesteryear?

 

The simple answer is sin. Sin has been passeed down over the generations.

Can you explain to me that if slavery and segregation were abolished then why did the following happen and not one thing done about it? A young man I met in 1995 who led a young black youth to Christ and invited him to the church which had some deacons who prevented the youth from entering the church just because the color of his skin. Why was that church not reprimanded and refused fellowship if it did not change it ways? Why is it that the denomination did not take a stance as Billy Graham once did? Yet the denomination collected money from that church for missions. Anyone who has been a pastor knows those things are occuring.

Let me ask you a few questions. How many Christian families do you know that practice Deut. 6 among their children. How many Christians do you know who are practicing Matthew 28:19, 20 and making disciples. How much of the budget of the church you attend is spent on electricity versus discipleship.

None of the pastors in a town on the west coast will marry a couple unless they have so many sessions of premarital counseling. I understand it has helped. A few years ago I read about a couple that wanted to get married in that town and could not find a place to get married without getting any counseling first. They wanted to get married right away but could not.

I believe that when the church steps up to the plate then God uses the church. How can he use people who are unwilling to be used and be spent for Christ? If we love this world more than Christ then we will get what we have gotten.

Sometime go to your church and at random ask some people about how many of their neighbors are they praying for.

My point is when the church is strong then the people will have a strong influence. When the church is weak then the church will have a weak influence.

In some areas of tghe US the churhc has been promoting creating a distance between Christians and non-Christians. My questions is "Why are they so afraid?" Some of the strongest Christians I have met are from communist countries. They were forced to go to atheist schools and heard the anti-God propoganda. lok at their strength.

 

Well, I agree with you to a point.

How many Baptist churches have more than a handful of people in Sunday evening services and even less than that on any given Wednesday night? There's your answer to your questions in a nutshell. How many people right here on the BB are active church members rather than being a name on a church roll or even are "between churches" right now???

And when prayer was taken out of public schools, Christians let it happen. From there, America has gone down the slippery slope of moral decay. And none of it had anything to do with slavery in America which was legally abolished decades ago.

 

Years ago I replanted a dying church. To get them going again I did away with Wed. night and Sunday night. Then I told them to go out and meet their neighbors. They were left with no excuses. In the first year I spent a lot of time training them to do ministry by visiting peole and knocking on doors. When I began to ask them to tell me about their neighbors I found out very few knew much about them. I told the church people to begin praying for their neighbors and inviting them over for a barbeque. Within two years everyone of them were involved in some kind of ministry. The problem was that all they knew was going to church. They did not have a clue how to disciple people. There were more non-Christians in Bible studies in the community than there were people in church. The hcuirch people began to pray together and ask God for big things. That church had lost its building and pastor. Two years later we were praying for land without any money. A few years later they bought 20 acres of prime ground.

Those people were so busy in church things that they failed to reach out to others. At the end of two years I told them I was done with them in Bible study and it was time for them to rest and start their own. Almost everyone had already started a Bible study in the community which they were leading. When I told them that, they told me that they did not want to quit and that they needed it.

What Satan likes to do is to get the Christian busy busy busy and not producing. Busy but not accomplishing anything for the kingdom.

If Henry Ford were living today would he rather see one good running Ford or 1,000 in the junk yard. In all of the churches I pastored except one when I told the deacons I wanted them to do mninistry with me it was amazing the number of excuses I had. Never once did a new Christian give me one. The majority saw churhc as important and show up to prayer meetings but when it came time to do some real ministry they had excuses.

Communism did not promote prayer but during that time some of the greatest Christians remained. The frauds went by the wayside. Where the battle is the greatest the Christians are the strongest.

Consider Daniel. Did it affect his faith?

Even in America the strongest Christians do not come from the areas of least resisitance. I like it when people are hot or cold. It gives you something to discuss. Complacency is like trying to discuss things with a vacuum of knowledge.

 

With one bold and decisive stroke I could utterly DESTROY your last statement and cause irreversible and lasting psychological damage!:laugh: :laugh:

However I will instead, for the good of both our nations and in order to maintain good relations, as I feel strongly compelled in doing so, simply employ English mannerism and tip my hat with "well stated!"


BYW, I meant to say America was the greatest nation conceived by God!


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Seriously, I like your sense of humor and appreciate the post! Let's continue to pray for the Lord's work in each of our nations and within us.


take care and God bless.:wavey:

 

Excellent post Lady Eagle!:thumbs:

Yes, the thread strayed from the O.P. which I noted to gb93433 as it was to become a slavery or Civil War debate thus adding little to the O.P. I apologize for somewhat continuing but would like to re-direct in a better fashion.



Slavery is a legitimate issue to discuss on moral grounds as gb93433 brought up; however it had little to do with the O.P. as it was presented. If it had been presented as "You cannot argue America was a greater moralistic nation at any time during slavery", then it could have added to the discussion.

Only there is great fallacy with that stance because slavery is not the greatest moral issue America has ever faced. That would also presuppose many of us feel America was at its greatest moral level during its earlier years and not at some other point. After all, slavery ended some 130 years ago in America and we continued to grow as a Christian nation or society. It is in part why it ended.

Again this is easily shown with the introduction and continuance of many laws, Supreme Court decisions, Presidential/Congressional acts and societal attitudes, which were based on Christian morals. A pattern which continued until the 1960's when many of these traditions began to come under attack; leading to the removal of the Ten Commandments and Voluntary School prayer, to the eventual usurpation of State rights with the legalization of abortion, the forced introduction of Darwinism and outlawing of Creationism, etc, etc, etc.

At no time in American history, until recent decades, did you have such ferocious and across the board attacks on these many historical and long standing values of American society and our Christian heritage. Otherwise, I invite anyone to show differently! This continues further, with attempts to remove the Ten Commandments from other Government buildings, attempts to remove Crosses from public and historic cemeteries, to attacking the Pledge of Allegiance and "In God We Trust". Attempts in introducing classes for which children are not only taught to accept "alternative" lifestyles but that such is normal and equal to any other lifestyle, to removing Christmas songs and plays from schools or other public attacks on Christmas, to promoting gay marriage, etc, etc.



As bad as slavery was, what Christian would argue that it is worse or even equal to the killing of millions of unborn children each year: or the solicitation and rape of women and children as found today?!!

That is only an argument you will get from atheist and the like. It is such that was never an accepted practice in American society as clearly shown with the moral laws opposing it and the many other un-Godly issues. Therefore our Forefathers, grand and great grand parents, were up a moralistic leg on us. As many laws and attitudes as the above, have been relaxed or abolished all together, in our lifetime. We are greatly to blame, as many Christians refrained from getting involved with politics and such. If we cannot even agree on how to stand on abortion issues, then how are we to unite in changing our society back to a more Godly nature? We cannot even agree that should be an objective, though God clearly shows He judges and blesses nations according to their nature. He expects us to bring His word to the world, how disappointing it is we cannot even bring it to our own nation!

As bad as slavery was, one thing that was not mentioned is, those blacks and indeed Indians were introduced to the Lord, with many finding salvation through Him! If we truly believe what we say and can rejoice in the salvation of others', then you cannot argue nothing good came of it. As black congregations arose and thrived from the Founders day and as surely God saw to it. I believe slavery is wrong as Jesus taught us the Golden Rule, "do unto others as you would have done unto you".

But it cannot be as bad as what we witness today and the sanctimonious attitude we take in thinking we are clean of slavery and such exploitations, or even racist attitudes. It takes good people as Lady Eagle and others' in reminding us of this.




The O.P. is correct in that we have not gotten better or even maintained a good moral standard but in fact have gone down; as easily shown through abortion, illegitimate birth rates, and divorce rates alone. This is not to say America is a lost cause or that we are a bad people, as I still believe we have a huge heart! God often punished His chosen people Israel, lead them into and then out of slavery, and eventually split them into many nations.

The point is to remind us in being diligent to serve as good Christian examples and in attempting to preserve the Blessings of our Lord unto us as a nation. God knows our family through many generations, as many many others', have given in service for our great Nation. We should honor their memories in preserving what many fought and died for, in standing for the Lord and continuing to ask for His much needed guidance.


The O.P. is correct, but we truly have the ability to correct that.


Take care and God Bless America! God Bless you and me as we honor Him!:jesus:

 

Has America gone down? It appears that way. But I would contend in many ways we are on a cycle. Throughout the history of a nation there have been good and bad times. So it is in America.

I find it much easier to talk with people from former communist countries about Christ than I do Americans. 30 years ago I did not find that the case.

 

No democracy has ever lasted, what you need is a good old monarchy! I'll give Queen Liz a call and we'll get things set up!

She may even give a discount on all those back taxes you guys owe.

 

Doesn't look like the mionarchy has either.