Were God's words purified seven times?

[Ed Edwards]

Proverbs 13:16 (KJV1611 Edition):
Euery prudent man dealeth with knowledge:
but a foole layeth open his folly.


Consider the web page:
Figures of Speech by E.W. Bullinger, Systematically Classified

http://www.godstruthfortoday.org/Library/bullinger/FiguresOfSpeech.html#omission

Consider especially this entry:

Sim'-i-le; or, Resemblance (Genesis 25:25.
Matthew 7:24-27). A declaration that one thing
resembles another. (Compare Metaphor, above.)

Consider the following similes:

Isa 53:7 (KJV1611 Edition):
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth:
he is brought as a lambe to the slaughter,
and as a sheepe before her shearers is dumme,
so he openeth not his mouth.

This simile compares a female sheep
who is silent before her shearers
speaks not, as will the Messiah to come.

Isa 53:7 (NRS = New Revised Standard):
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

This simile compares a male sheep
who is silent before his shearers
speaks not, as will the Messiah to come.

The two similes have the same meaning.

There is no superiority here between one
translation and the other. Both use the Scripture
simile properly. The Biblical prophecy is
the same whearther the male sheep or the
female sheep is use.

To say otherwise is AS a fool displaying
his or her folly.

 

[robycop3]

Salamander:You want to apply verse 7 to verse 5 be my guest, but any 5th grade reader will understand that God has KEPT His Word PURE by reading the 12th Psalm.

But WE are not 5th graders who prolly won't explore the fact that the AV translators themselves scuttled your idea before it was even born! We HAVE explored that FACT, & therefore reject your notion.

And, Sal...YOU'RE STILL DODGING THIS QUESTION......!!!


IF YOU WERE RIGHT ABOUT PSALM 12:7(but you're not!) WHERE DOES IT MAKE THE SLIGHTEST REFERENCE TO THE KJV???????????????

Either QUIT DODGING or admit YOU CANNOT ANSWER! This farce has gone on long enough!

 

[franklinmonroe]

Then explain how the Holy Spirit inspired Isaiah to refer to Jesus as a "sheep before HER sheerers was dumb"


Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Did the Holy Spirit refer to Jesus as a sheep in this verse? To use your expression, Salamander: "...try re-reading the verse again".

Certainly not directly. While there is one figuerative clause suggesting that "he" is like a "lamb" in a very specific way, there is not a phrase that directly says "he" is a/like a "sheep".

Not indirectly. We should understand this verse as being separated into two imporatnt thoughts by the comma following "slaughter": 1. "he" will be led (to slaughter as occurs with young lambs) and 2. "he" will be silent (exemplified by the behavior of sheep). He is "brought" as the lamb in the first part, and He is "dumb" as the sheep in the second part. This example is about the silence, not the sheep. It doesn't explicitly state here that "he" is the "lamb" (or The Lamb, which He is), just that His characteristics can be compared with those of innocent animals.

Christ is obviously not literally a "lamb" (remember, this is poetry), but this verse is NOT suggesting that the Saviour is a/like a ewe sheep. There, I explained it.

 

[Keith M]

Toying with the Word of God by altering the flow of Scripture by jumping the contextual topic around allows for many mistakes in interpretation.

Then by your reasoning the writer of Psalm 12 shouldn't have been "toying with the Word of God." It is unthinkable that the writer of any portion of the Bible was toying with the word of God (scriptures), and certainly not with the Word of God (Jesus Christ). So what makes you think this passage has been toyed with, Salamander?

Something's amiss in your hermanuetics, like, not interpreting the Bible just as it is.

Strange you should say that, Salamander. It is you who is misniterpreting the Bible just as it is. It is quite evident that vs. 6 is merely an aside of praise and that vs. 7 refers to the subject of the entire Psalm. There is definitely something amiss in someone's hermeneutics, but it is your hermeneutics that are amiss.

 

[Salamander]

Salamander:You want to apply verse 7 to verse 5 be my guest, but any 5th grade reader will understand that God has KEPT His Word PURE by reading the 12th Psalm.

But WE are not 5th graders who prolly won't explore the fact that the AV translators themselves scuttled your idea before it was even born! We HAVE explored that FACT, & therefore reject your notion.

And, Sal...YOU'RE STILL DODGING THIS QUESTION......!!!


IF YOU WERE RIGHT ABOUT PSALM 12:7(but you're not!) WHERE DOES IT MAKE THE SLIGHTEST REFERENCE TO THE KJV???????????????

Either QUIT DODGING or admit YOU CANNOT ANSWER! This farce has gone on long enough!

Will you please quit yelling?

Since the KJB is the Word of God and Psalm 12:6 ,7 are in the Word of God..................................................

 

[Salamander]

Proverbs 13:16 (KJV1611 Edition):
Euery prudent man dealeth with knowledge:
but a foole layeth open his folly.


Consider the web page:
Figures of Speech by E.W. Bullinger, Systematically Classified

http://www.godstruthfortoday.org/Library/bullinger/FiguresOfSpeech.html#omission

Consider especially this entry:

Sim'-i-le; or, Resemblance (Genesis 25:25.
Matthew 7:24-27). A declaration that one thing
resembles another. (Compare Metaphor, above.)

Consider the following similes:

Isa 53:7 (KJV1611 Edition):
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth:
he is brought as a lambe to the slaughter,
and as a sheepe before her shearers is dumme,
so he openeth not his mouth.

This simile compares a female sheep
who is silent before her shearers
speaks not, as will the Messiah to come.

Isa 53:7 (NRS = New Revised Standard):
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
andlike a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

This simile compares a male sheep
who is silent before his shearers
speaks not, as will the Messiah to come.

The two similes have the same meaning.

There is no superiority here between one
translation and the other. Both use the Scripture
simile properly. The Biblical prophecy is
the same whearther the male sheep or the
female sheep is use.

To say otherwise is AS a fool displaying
his or her folly.

So you admit that the gender references are not solely the authority in such matters?

To say otherwise is AS a fool adverstisng HIS folly, that is if Ed is a "real man" LOL

 

[Salamander]

Did the Holy Spirit refer to Jesus as a sheep in this verse? To use your expression, Salamander: "...try re-reading the verse again".

Certainly not directly. While there is one figuerative clause suggesting that "he" is like a "lamb" in a very specific way, there is not a phrase that directly says "he" is a/like a "sheep".

Not indirectly. We should understand this verse as being separated into two imporatnt thoughts by the comma following "slaughter": 1. "he" will be led (to slaughter as occurs with young lambs) and 2. "he" will be silent (exemplified by the behavior of sheep). He is "brought" as the lamb in the first part, and He is "dumb" as the sheep in the second part. This example is about the silence, not the sheep. It doesn't explicitly state here that "he" is the "lamb" (or The Lamb, which He is), just that His characteristics can be compared with those of innocent animals.

Christ is obviously not literally a "lamb" (remember, this is poetry), but this verse is NOT suggesting that the Saviour is a/like a ewe sheep. There, I explained it.

yep, you missed it again, STRIKE!

The metaphor expressed in the form of the simile implicates the femininity of how the actions of Jesus were to be described in His laying His Life down for man's sin. True.

The example was to prove that gender is not the over-riding rule of thumb in determining the interpretation.

This evidence nullifies the arguement that Ps 12:6,7 are anything but the verses to PROVE that the Word of God is what is preserved.

Also, the implication in context can NOT be the poor and needy due to the FACT that the poor and needy also died; either died in their sins and went to a devils' hell, or by faith received the Gospel of Christ in Paradise.

The arguement that it is about the poor and needy makes poverty the earmarks of salvation and a requirement for salvation as well.

The key is doctrinal truth, not presumptuous attitudes against context.:BangHead:

 

[Salamander]

Then by your reasoning the writer of Psalm 12 shouldn't have been "toying with the Word of God." It is unthinkable that the writer of any portion of the Bible was toying with the word of God (scriptures), and certainly not with the Word of God (Jesus Christ). So what makes you think this passage has been toyed with, Salamander?

Nothing, you imposed that ideal of yours to try and make it look like that.

The toying occurs after the fact by those who make presumptions aboput the Word of God.

Try following CONTEXT coupled with Doctrine sometimes, it will help you tremendously

Strange you should say that, Salamander. It is you who is misniterpreting the Bible just as it is. It is quite evident that vs. 6 is merely an aside of praise and that vs. 7 refers to the subject of the entire Psalm. There is definitely something amiss in someone's hermeneutics, but it is your hermeneutics that are amiss.

Misniterpreting?

So you now believe God keeps people poor and needy so they can merit salvation.:sleep:

Do the smiley's make sounds?

 

[robycop3]

Salamander:Will you please quit yelling?

Not as long as you continue to play "Ring Around The Rosie" trying to avoid a legitimate question.

Since the KJB is the Word of God and Psalm 12:6 ,7 are in the Word of God..................................................

In other words,YOU CAN'T ANSWER and won't admit it.

I declare without hesitation that Psalm 12:7 is about PEOPLE, with the proof being found in the AV 1611 as well as in other versions, and that the entire Psalm 12 does NOT refer to the KJV in any manner. If you cannot prove me wrong as I've proven YOU wrong, then please act in a Christian manner and admit it. You're not doing your credibility a bitta good by making incorrect statements in the face of evidence PROVING them wrong, nor by trying to dodge a pointed but legitimate question. All I'm asking for is evidence that anything in Psalm 12 points to the KJV. If you cannot supply it, then be honest enough to admit it.

You've admitted that God's words were not purified 7 times, that they were pure when He said'em. Please be Christian enough to admit that Psalm 12:7 is about PEOPLE, as the AV men said, and as many later versions say, and that there's not one quark of evidence in Psalm 12 supporting KJVO.

 

[Salamander]

Thy much speaking doth make thee sound mad. (especially the "christian yelling")

I do wonder, since tobacco doesn't scream that it causes cancer when it is smoked, does that mean it cannot be the root cause for cancer?

Of course doctors will say it does cause cancer, but the skeptics, you might be included, say that they have smoked for years upon years and at best only contracted emphazema.

Are "we" in a tizzy today, brother?

I have never seen you yell this much before, but since I have caused you to yell so much today, glad to be of service!

The KJB is never mentioned by mouth of the LORD, but His Word is kept intact with infallibility, inerrancy, and is definitely INSPIRED! ( in the KJB)

Does that OFFEND you?

 

[Salamander]

I must ask for your evidence that "AV men" ever said that verse 7 is limited to people, who BTW, are people kept by the Pure Word of God which is kept!

Are you poor and needy?

 

[robycop3]

Salamander:Thy much speaking doth make thee sound mad. (especially the "christian yelling")

I do wonder, since tobacco doesn't scream that it causes cancer when it is smoked, does that mean it cannot be the root cause for cancer?

Terbacky aint human...it don't speak at all.

Of course doctors will say it does cause cancer, but the skeptics, you might be included, say that they have smoked for years upon years and at best only contracted emphazema.

I don't smoke, nor use terbacky at all. And had the AMA come out with the cancer info first, insteada the govt. a lot more people woulda believed it sooner.

Are "we" in a tizzy today, brother?

Newp! I aint avoiding any questions.

I have never seen you yell this much before, but since I have caused you to yell so much today, glad to be of service!

Kewl! Does that mean you're gonna answer, finally?

The KJB is never mentioned by mouth of the LORD,

Nor does He even IMPLY it in the slightest.

but His Word is kept intact with infallibility, inerrancy, and is definitely INSPIRED! ( in the KJB)

And in several other English versions.

Does that OFFEND you?[/quote]

Newp! Why should "I" be offended when "YOU" are avoiding the question? You're only kicking "your" own credibility in the teeth by your continued failure to answer.

 

[Salamander]

:laugh: So next you'll try to tell the whole world that Ps 12: 6,7 aren't in the KJB?

So, we'll find out the whole truth when you answer my question since the Bible answers all your questions and I have answered your one specific question countless times now:

Are YOU poor and needy?

Don't bother saying anymore of your drool nor as Ed put it, your foolish ranting, until you answer my question, or you'll be the only one dodging any questions.

 

[robycop3]

Salamander:I must ask for your evidence that "AV men" ever said that verse 7 is limited to people, who BTW, are people kept by the Pure Word of God which is kept!

I, & several others, have posted the marginal note written by the AV men several times. I even typed it real slow once so certain people could catch it. Not to mention several versions, including the Geneva Bible, have "him" in V7.

Are you poor and needy?

Financially, no. But I could be in other areas...but not from believing an incorrect doctrine.

 

[Salamander]

Then either you are wrong in your ascertian, or you're only partway kept by a god who can only partway keep you. ( by your estimation of Ps 12:6,7)

hint: marginal notes do not make the Bible, they only at best make marginal notes.

Still you dodge my questions. I asked you for proof, not conjecture.

 

[Ed Edwards]

:laugh: So next you'll try to tell the whole world that Ps 12: 6,7 aren't in the KJB?

So, we'll find out the whole truth when you answer my question since the Bible answers all your questions and I have answered your one specific question countless times now:

Are YOU poor and needy?

Don't bother saying anymore of your drool nor as Ed put it, your foolish ranting, until you answer my question, or you'll be the only one dodging any questions.

been there, done that:

----------------------------------



1. Come, ye sinners, poor and wretched, /
Weak and wounded, sick and sore;
Jesus ready stands to save you, /
Full of pity joined with pow'r.

Refrain:
I will arise and go to Jesus, /
He will embrace me in His arms;
In the arms of my dear Savior, /
O there are ten thousand charms.

2. Come, ye needy, come, and welcome, /
God's free bounty glorify;
True belief and true repentance, /
Every grace that brings you nigh.

– Text by Joseph Hart in Hymns Composed
on Various Subjects (1759);
Tune "Arise" from William Walker's
Southern Harmony and Musical Companion (1835)
----------------------------------------

 

[EdSutton]

Some more of the same old; same old... :tonofbricks: {Yawn} !!
:sleep::sleeping_2:

Personally, what offends me, and I believe alos, the Lord, is adding to and taking away from the scriptures, as in Rev. 22!! Strange how those that seem to do one or the other, seem to see others as doing just the opposite!

Ed

 

[Keith M]

Try following CONTEXT coupled with Doctrine sometimes, it will help you tremendously

Hmmm...good idea, Salamander. Why don't you ry it? The point is that the context of Psalm 12 shows that it is people and not words who will be preserved. The doctrine of protection for God's people runs throughout Scripture. The confusion comes when you impose the false interpretation that God is promising to preserve His words in this psalm. Then you further impose this false interpretation as support for the error of KJVO thinking. This has nothing to do with the KJV. Context, context, context!

So you now believe God keeps people poor and needy so they can merit salvation.

I didn't say that, Salamander, and you know it. And neither did the psalmist say that. This is another fine example of your using false accusations to try to focus the topic away from the errors you cannot support.

The psalmist is talking about God protecting and keeping the poor in the face of oppression. That is what this psalm is all about. If the psalmist had not inserted the praise statement indicating God's words (His promises) are pure, you would not have been so confused. If you read the psalm in its entirety without vs. 6 you will see that the thought flows beautifully from beginning to end. It is the psalmist's insertion of praise in vs. 6 that is confusing you and others who believe vs. 7 is a promise to preserve words. It isn't. This entire psalm is telling us that God will keep (protect) the poor and needy from oppression. It's really quite simple and plain to see, Salamander, if you will take it all in context as you have suggested. Your misinterpretation is due to your not taking vs. 7 in context.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Come on fellas - do we really need to shout in here?

Let's conduct ourselves like Christian gentlemen.

 

[Keith M]

The KJB is never mentioned by mouth of the LORD, but His Word is kept intact with infallibility, inerrancy, and is definitely INSPIRED! ( in the KJB)

Of course the KJV is never mentioned by God. And yes, His word is inspired in the originals. The KJV did a great job of preserving God's word, but there were errors in the KJV. After all, the KJV was translated by men, and men make mistakes. However, God's word is also beautifully preserved in the NKJV, the NASB, the NIV, etc. When you say God's word isn't preserved in these MVs you are bringing into doubt the veracity of what God has provided for us - His word in more modern language for the people of today. That is exactly what the KJV did in 1611 - it brought God's word in more modern language for the people of that day. If there is no need for the updating and modernizing of language, then there was no need for the KJV.