Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

Okay, been a while since we have looked at this, so for the benefit of the newer members I pose the question again.

I ask first (and be honest), is this something you have given thought to before?

I ask secondly that you provide Scripture for every point you wish to bring to the table, no opinions, please.

Have fun!


God bless.

 

I have to stop you there because I do not embrace the popular tradition of making the "soul" refer to an immaterial aspect of our existence.

Genesis 2:7
King James Version (KJV)

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


It is because of this teaching that we have doctrines such as Soul Sleep and Annihilation, and why countless believers get deceived by those who promote these doctrines.

Here are a few passages where we see that man is a soul, not...that he has a soul:


Genesis 12:5
King James Version (KJV)

5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.


Genesis 46:26
King James Version (KJV)

26 All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls were threescore and six;


Acts 7:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls.


Acts 27:37
King James Version (KJV)

37 And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls.


While a disembodied person can still properly be called a "soul," because they are still the person, the popular tradition of viewing the "soul" as an immaterial part of man's make-up does considerable harm, and allows certain passages to have imposed into them an eternal context which is not present.

The best example is Ezekiel 18, popularly taught to speak of eternal life and death because of course "the soul" is in view. But if one reads the Chapter and keeps it in context, we see a purely physical context in which in view is physical life or death according to obedience, or disobedience to the Law.

I view this as more popular pulpit theology.

Man's great problem is that he is conceived and born separated from God. Many think we are separated because we sin, but we sin because we are separated.

The spirit of man is created not having eternal life, though nowhere in Scripture do we see that spirits pass away (cease to exist). The remedy for the natural man is taht he receive eternal life through Christ, which is what Christ came to accomplish.

All you need to do is find a passage in the Old Testament where men can be seen as regenerate.

So the disciples, who did not believe on the Resurrection either prior to or immediately after the Resurrection...were born again?

So men can be born again yet not reconciled to God?

Again I am going to need Scripture. I'll give you a passage to consider until you bring that to the table:


Titus 3:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


We are regenerated at salvation, which is the same time we receive the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.


1 Peter 1:3
King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


James 1:18
King James Version (KJV)

18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


We are born again by the Cross and the Resurrection of Christ, and this through the Gospel of Christ, which was a Mystery not revealed to Ages and generations past, to the (Old Testament) Saints, or the sons of men, but is now revealed by the Spirit to His holy Apostles and Prophets.

Regeneration became a possibility when Christ came:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


The terms born again, born from above, born of the Spirit, and born of God are all speaking of the same event in the believers life, and it is then that we are children, the sons of God:


1 John 5:1-5
King James Version (KJV)

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


As shown in the other thread, the disciples were unbelieving in the Resurrection until after Christ came and "proved" it to them ("...touch Me, feel me, for a spirit hath not flesh and bone as ye see me have.")

Hence they did not have eternal life. And it would not be until they were Baptized into Christ that they would have the Life He came to give.

And all we need is Scripture to verify that.

It's not just Pentecostals that teach that: most denominations teach the Baptism with the Holy Ghost as a subsequent event.

Correct, since Pentecost.

And when someone can explain to me how men can be born again when they have not confessed Jesus Christ as Lord perhaps I may need to rethink my position.




God bless.

 

Please post the Scripture and state what is relevant to the point you are trying to make.


God bless.

 

I see nothing in this that shows "Jesus saying so."

What is in the text is that Christ makes a dogmatic assertion that no man will see the Kingdom of God except he be born again.

But let me remind you that He also made the dogmatic assertion that men must believe on Him as well, and the fact is...not even His Disciples did that prior to Pentecost:


Mark 16:9-14
King James Version (KJV)

9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.


Now a question: do you believe the Lord to have accurately assessed the hearts of the disciples, or will you continue to present them as born again believers?

That is correct. When men are born again it is always going to be a past event.

There is no evidence in the text suggesting anyone had yet been born again.

Please post the part of John 3 where the Lord speaks of men in past who saw the Kingdom of God.

And while you are looking for that, I will post for those still reading the thread Christ's explanation to Nicodemus how men can be born from above, and born of the Spirit:


John 3:9-16
King James Version (KJV)

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


No man was born again prior to the Son of Man being lifted up.

Nicodemus should have immediately thought of Ezekiel 36 and 37, where God has promised to give Israel life.


God bless.

 

This is one of the worst errors of Reformed teaching, that God regenerates men that they might have faith in Christ.

The problem with that is that we have several passages which shows unbelievers who know the truth and have rejected it. I will give one passage, and ask that the Scripture and the points raised be addressed. So far not one person has done this.


Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Verse 26 makes it clear these men knew the truth. God is not going to hold them accountable for something they do not know.

In v.28 we see who these adversaries are, because they are contrasted with those who rejected the Covenant of Law, which is what the Writer often does in this epistle, he contrasts the Covenant of Law (called here Moses' Law, and elsewhere "the First Covenant") with the New Covenant.

So if we take Reformed teaching as being true (which it is not), we must equally conclude that born again believers can in fact, contrary to most of the New Testament...lose their salvation.

The simple solution is to simply maintain the context of this Chapter and see that in view are those wh, having the Truth, reject it, and are said to be worthy of a more severe punishment than their Old Testament counterparts, those who rejected the Covenant of Law.

Here is what these rejecters are rejecting:

1. Jesus Christ the Son of God;

2. The New Covenant;

3. The Sacrifice of Christ;

4. The Ministry of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Grace, Who is the Comforter.


They are no more born again than the Hebrews of 5:10-6:6 (who are ignorant even of the ABCs of the Doctrine of Christ presented in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament)).

And just so you know, there is a difference between Saving Faith and the fruit produced by the Spirit in the believer.




It is the Comforter that enlightens the natural mind to the Truth of the Gospel:


John 16:7-9
King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


If you will notice, the Comforter convicts the world of sin, because they believe not on the Lord Jesus Christ.

God does not regenerate men that they might have saving faith, He ministers to natural men and enlightens their minds to the Gospel, and regenerates those who believe.


Continued...

 

Again, all we need is Scripture to verify that.

The Apostles did not "administer the Holy Spirit."

The Holy Spirit ministered through the Apostles.

Men do not "give" men the Holy Spirit, they give them the Gospel.


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Continued...

 

Paul tells us that too:


1 Corinthians 2:7-10
King James Version (KJV)

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


Men have always been enlightened to the spiritual of truths by the Spirit of God. But, the key to properly interpreting Scripture is to remember that Revelation has been progressive. And the Gospel of Christ (hence Eternal Redemption through Christ) was a Mystery not revealed in past Ages:


Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


The Comforter came for the specific ministry of glorifying Christ:


John 14:26
King James Version (KJV)

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


John 16:13-15
King James Version (KJV)

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


Continued...

 

Do you doubt that he was baptized with the Holy Ghost?

He heard the Gospel, and believed...


Acts 8:35-38
King James Version (KJV)

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.


If he had not been saved, Philip would not have baptized him.

That is correct. That is true today, and it is true in the Old Testament. No man had received Reconciliation through Atonement, thus were not eternally indwelt as Scripture makes clear now takes place when one believes on Christ.

Great, now all we need, as repeatedly requested...

...is Scripture to support that.

It is true, you owe your salvation to the Ministry of the Holy Ghost, Who enlightened your mind to the Gospel that you might believe, or reject. You were immersed into God (Baptized with the Holy Ghost, Baptized into Christ('s Body) and as a result were born again because you then received what you were born without...

...life.


John 6:51-54
King James Version (KJV)

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


Question: what does Christ mean by "eating of His flesh and drinking of His blood?"

The answer is in v.51.


God bless.

 

And as already mentioned before, the Old Testament Saints did not receive the promises:


Hebrews 11:13
King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


A promise is just a promise until fulfilled. As mentioned before, "perfection" in the Greek means completion, a bringing to an end. Yes, the Old Testament Saints ha faith, but they did not receive the promises, and Regeneration and Eternal Indwelling is the specific promise made here:


Ezekiel 36:24-27
King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


This speaks of a future day, in which God states "I will." Contrast that to what was expected under Law:


Ezekiel 18:30-32
King James Version (KJV)

30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.


The Old Testament Saints died not having received the promises. The revelation given men in that day spoke of what God would do, and it remained promise until fulfilled (made complete) by Christ:


Ezekiel 11:17-20
King James Version (KJV)

17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.

18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.

19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.


Hebrews 8:7-13
King James Version (KJV)

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


Regeneration is a promise of God in the Old Testament, and the Old Testament Saints died in faith...not having received the promises.


God bless.

 

So answer this question: believe in what?

Here we see men in Peter's Day, on the Day of Pentecost, not Old Testament Saints (at least not for long, lol).

General faith in God is no longer acceptable that men be justified:


Hebrews 6:1-2
King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.


Galatians 3:21-25
King James Version (KJV)

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.



The Faith of Christ was not here until Christ came, died on the Cross, arose from the dead, returned to Heaven, and sent the Comforter Who enlightens men to the truth of the Gospel that they might place saving faith in the Risen Savior:


1 Peter 1:10-12
King James Version (KJV)

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


These truths are throughout the New Testament, my friend, there for you to see.


God bless.

 

Correct.

And, the Old Testament Saints did as well, receiving Atonement and Reconciliation when Christ died in their stead, thereby they were made perfect (complete) through His Work:


Hebrews 12:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


Their spirits awaited in Sheol/Hades until Christ eternally redeemed them:


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


God bless.