Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

[Darrell C]

There seems to be a limited understanding of the role of the Holy Spirit.

We know the Holy Spirit was given selectively before Pentecost. Universally at Penetcost

Jhn 20:21
Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as myFather hath sent me, even so send I you.
Jhn 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Perhaps you will explain why, if the Disciples received the Spirit here, the Lord tells them they are still awaiting the Promise of the Father here...


Acts 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


...?

And we know. He never said wait til Pentecost

Jhn 20:30
And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
Jhn 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

It's right there in the passage above.

What was the Promise of the Father they had heard of from Christ?

And I would be careful about making comments about "limited understanding." You have already given an example of that, and I would hate to see you continue to do so.


God bless.

 

[TCassidy]

Perhaps if you addressed the Scripture and the points raised to your 'Jesus says so" exposition then you would not be making this response now.

One more time then I will just give up.

John 3:3 is scripture.

The exegesis was the identification of the verb "born" as being aorist indicating something that occurred in the past.

Additionally, it is a passive voice verb. Not something Nicodemus was told to do, but something that will be done to him. Just as he had no control over his natural birth, he has no control over his spiritual birth.

This is 4th grade Sunday School stuff. Aren't there any good churches in the Richmond area that teach the bible?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I have given thought to this before and yes, everyone who has ever been saved has been born from above.
Matthew 16:16-17; Romans 8:7-9.

Please post the Scripture and state what is relevant to the point you are trying to make.
God bless.

Well God bless you too, brother Darrell, but you asked a question; I gave you my answer and gave Scriptural support for it.
However, since I love you in the Lord, I will add a little to what I wrote before.

Matt. 16:16-17. 'Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven."'
So what does our Lord mean by this? Well, we have some help in the Scriptures: 'Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God' (1 John 5:1). God the Holy Spirit had worked in Peter and brought him to a saving knowledge of the truth. Nor was Peter the only Apostle to have been born again prior to Pentecost. '[Andrew] first found his own brother Simon, and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which is translated, the Christ). And he brought him to Jesus' (John 1:41-42). From this we may reasonably assume that all the Apostles except Judas Iscariot were born again. Peter was speaking for all of them. They did not yet have the fullness of the Sprit that they would receive at Pentecost, but they had enough to know that Jesus is the Christ.

So let's take a look at someone else. 'And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, "God, be merciful to me a sinner!"' (Luke 18:13). Like David, this man had committed sins for which the Mosaic law gave no saving sacrifice (c.f. Numbers 15:30-31)., If he had been as eloquent as David, he would have said, '....You do not desire sacrifice or I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart-- these, O God, you will not despise' (Psalm 51:16-17). He put his faith in Yeshua, 'the LORD saves.' And He did. 'I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.'

So what is the difference between the work of the Holy Spirit before Pentecost and afterwards? I quote from Geoff Thomas' book, The Holy Spirit (Reformation Heritage, ISBN 978-1-60178-156-7).

The Holy Spirit indwelt true O.T. believers.No one can be born again, believe, repent or make one step of spiritual progress without the inward work of the Holy Spirit. In fact, no one can persevere in faith for one second without the ongoing internal work of the Spirit-- neither in the O.T. nor in the N.T.. Without the Holy Spirit constantly in and at work in their hearts, believers will immediately apostatize.

But having laid that foundational continuity.....we must also ask, "In what ways did the indwelling work of the H.S. differ in the O.T. from the New, especially post-Pentecost?" Everyone accepts there was a difference, but what was it? The Spirit's indwelling in the O.T. was like a water dropper continually dripping a little water onto a sponge on a hot day. The Spirit's indwelling in the N.T. is like a pressure hose jetting water into a sponge with excess water pouring out everywhere.

Think of a dry sponge on a hot day. Now imagine a water dropper. The dropper drips water so slowly onto the sponge that while it gets wet, it never fills up so much that the water runs out of the sponge. This was the O.T. believers' and the N.T. disciples' experience of the Spirit [before Pentecost]. Christ kept them supplied with a continual 'dripping of the Spirit' that kept them spiritually alive and fruitful, but rarely so much that their spiritual life overflowed into the lives of others. The same was true of the O.T. saints as a whole But now imagine someone takes a pressure washer and starts jetting the sponge......Welcome to Pentecost. Welcome to what Jesus was predicting in John 7:37-39.

But why the delay? Because 'Jesus was not yet glorified.' Prior to the N.T., the Spirit had relatively little truth to work with. But when Christ was glorified-- when He died, rose again and ascended-- then the Spirit had much more truth to work with. When the fullness of God's revelation of Chjrist had come, then the fullness of the Spirit could be poured out. At Pentecost we see a new plenitude, perpetuity, pervasiveness and publicity about the Spirit.......Narrow Jewish hearts would be so filled with Christ and the Spirit that they would burst their banks and overflow out to the nations with spiritual blessing as Peter did in Acts 2 for example.

In conclusion then, we can say that while the H.S. indwelt all O.T. believers, their experience of the Spirit was usually limited to a degree of personal filling, but they were rarely fully filled, and even more rarely did they overflow to others in witness, evangelism and witness. That filling... awaited the apex of the person and work of Christ, when the Holy Spirit was poured out on Him without measure and on His Church in an overflowing way.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑
Perhaps if you addressed the Scripture and the points raised to your 'Jesus says so" exposition then you would not be making this response now.

One more time then I will just give up.

John 3:3 is scripture.

The exegesis was the identification of the verb "born" as being aorist indicating something that occurred in the past.

That is eisegesis, not exegesis.

This is evident because Nicodemus is not born again, nor were the disciples, unless one want to say that men can be born again without believing on Christ.

Secondly, again you do not address the point or the Scripture given that shows the futility of your grammatical "exegesis."

Here it is again, how about a response to the point and the Scripture?



He also told men they must believe on Jesus Christ.

So why weren't the disciples doing that?


Mark 16:9-14
King James Version (KJV)

9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.


Here is Peter, in opposition to the Gospel of Jesus Christ...

...presented by none other than Jesus Himself:


Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

The reason? Because the Gospel of Jesus Christ was a Mystery in that Age (of Law), and not being revealed by Christ to men:


John 20:8-9
King James Version (KJV)

8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

See Original Post Here

Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Additionally, it is a passive voice verb. Not something Nicodemus was told to do, but something that will be done to him.

You said...

As this was before Pentecost Jesus is saying that all those in the past who saw the Kingdom of God were born again, and Nicodemus had to be born again, prior to Pentecost, also.

I gave you...

I see nothing in this that shows "Jesus saying so."

What is in the text is that Christ makes a dogmatic assertion that no man will see the Kingdom of God except he be born again.

But let me remind you that He also made the dogmatic assertion that men must believe on Him as well, and the fact is...not even His Disciples did that prior to Pentecost:


Mark 16:9-14
King James Version (KJV)

9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.


Now a question: do you believe the Lord to have accurately assessed the hearts of the disciples, or will you continue to present them as born again believers?

And later pointed out Christ making it clear that John the Baptist was not in the Kingdom He came to establish:

Again, please post what part of John 3 the Lord is speaking of men in the past who saw the Kingdom of God?

Why do you continually ignore the points raised?

Here is another distinction between the Old Testament Saints and those who do enter the Kingdom:


Matthew 11:11
King James Version (KJV)

11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

John was not translated into the Kingdom of God's dear Son until Christ died for Him.

Just as he had no control over his natural birth, he has no control over his spiritual birth.

And he had no clue as to what the Lord was speaking about, when he should have.

This is 4th grade Sunday School stuff.

I guess you would know, seeing that fourth grade knowledge is certainly your specialty.

Aren't there any good churches in the Richmond area that teach the bible?

Lots of them, but unfortunately many of them teach the same popular pulpit mythology you do. Though I have never seen one teach that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is mythical, or that Christ went to Abraham...after the Ascension.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Well God bless you too, brother Darrell, but you asked a question; I gave you my answer and gave Scriptural support for it.

Giving a few verses doesn't equate to "giving Scriptural support for it."

Your new response, brother, is precisely what I was looking for, because you give Scripture and then expound upon it, thus giving me your understanding of it.

However, since I love you in the Lord, I will add a little to what I wrote before.

And here I thought you loved me for my excellent sense of humor.

But hey, love by default is good enough for me.

Matt. 16:16-17. 'Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven."'
So what does our Lord mean by this?

Exactly what it says, the Father revealed unto them that Jesus was in fact the Christ.

But Martin, do not mistake that for the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel, because when Christ gives them the Gospel immediately afterwards, Peter (the spokesman) rejects the Gospel:


Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.


I would first point out that Christ forbids them to convey the truth that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Christ gives them the Gospel...


21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.


...and one question I would ask is, "...from that time forth?" Does it not indicate that Christ was not going around preaching the Gospel that was a MYstery that would be revealed by the Promised Spirit? It marks a point in time when He began to tell the Disciples of HIs impending death.

Now, Peter's opposition to the very Gospel of Jesus Christ:

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Having the benefit of the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel, and the completed Canon, what would you say to Peter if you could be transported back to that time and had been there when Peter makes this statement?

"Uh, Peter, that is the only thing that will keep you from an eternity of separation from God in Hell."

The reason why Peter rebukes the Lord is because he has not yet been made to understand the Scriptures:


John 20:8-9
King James Version (KJV)

8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.


Only God can enlighten the natural mind to spiritual truths, and He does that here:


Luke 24:25-27
King James Version (KJV)

25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


Luke 24:44-49
King James Version (KJV)

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.


And Christ defines the Promise of the Father here:


Acts 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

'Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God' (1 John 5:1).

And no man believed on Jesus Christ prior to Pentecost, with the exception of the Disciples, who received confirmation of the Lord's Resurrection prior to receiving the promised Spirit.

1 John 5:1 is a Post-Pentecost statement, and nothing in it supports a view that men were saved by believing that Messiah would come.

In fact it hammers the point that men must specifically believe on Christ:



1 John 5:1-5
King James Version (KJV)

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


We must maintain the context of 1 John throughout, and his first point is that Jesus Christ was Who He said He was:


1 John 1
King James Version (KJV)

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.


Eternal Life is obtained only through Christ, and only through His Work. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. Christ makes it clear numerous times that He came to bestow eternal life. And how He would manifest Himself (as John speaks of here) is directly answered by Christ here...


John 14:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Can a man be born again without being reconciled to God? Without being eternally indwelt?

Regeneration is the result of our being baptized into Christ, being immersed into God, being Baptized with the Holy Ghost.

The disciples were not born again because they knew He was the Christ, but by believing on Him as the Risen Savior:


1 Peter 1
King James Version (KJV)

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


The question I would pose to you is this: can a man be born again and not trust in Christ?


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

'Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God' (1 John 5:1).

Again, not even the Disciples believed on Christ prior to the Resurrection:


Mark 16:9-14
King James Version (KJV)

9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

God the Holy Spirit had worked in Peter and brought him to a saving knowledge of the truth.

He did not reveal to Peter the Mystery of the Gospel:


Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


I would agree Peter was "saved" from an Eternal Perspective within the Omniscience and foreknowledge of God, but, he was not eternally redeemed...


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


...because he was not eternally forgiven (made perfect in regards to remission of sins, a promise of the Old Testament)...


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


...and he was not justified through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus:


Romans 3:21-26
King James Version (KJV)

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Now I am going to say something that I just want you to consider seriously: Abraham was justified according to what he did in his lifetime (believed God), but, when Christ died, he was justified based on what Christ did.

This is why there is no contradiction between Paul and James, neither one is asserting that Abraham was eternally Redeemed through the justification they received during their lifetimes. Interpret Romans 4 based on the truths of Romans 3, and you will see that righteousness was indeed credited to Abraham, but, Abraham still died in need of a Savior.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Nor was Peter the only Apostle to have been born again prior to Pentecost. '[Andrew] first found his own brother Simon, and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which is translated, the Christ). And he brought him to Jesus' (John 1:41-42).

Again, no disciple believed on Christ prior to Pentecost. As I said, you could include the few days prior to Pentecost, but I do not even include those, because of two things:

First, the Lord denies their "belief:"


John 16:28-32
King James Version (KJV)

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


As shown in the earlier post, the disciples did not believe Christ would rise again, because they knew not the Scriptures that He should rise from the dead (John 20:9).


The second (and more could be added, but for time's sake I give only two) physical expectation:


Acts 1:4-7
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


I laugh every time I see this, because they are just told "You are going to receive the Promised Spirit not many days hence" and they...want to know if the physical Kingdom is going to be established.

Jews expected a man, a son of David, to restore Israel to her glory. The thought of a dying Messiah, though prophesied clear as day...was reprehensible to them.

This is similar to Peter having the truth that Jesus was the Christ the Son of the Living God revealed to him then rebuking Christ for the Gospel. Again, because the Gospel of Christ was not being revealed yet (and we distinguish between something being prophesied and something actually revealed)we cannot fault the Disciples.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

From this we may reasonably assume that all the Apostles except Judas Iscariot were born again.

I must respectfully disagree, brother.

To equate the revelation that Jesus was indeed the Christ to actually placing faith in Christ as the Savior, especially when we see direct statements of the Lord that they were not believing...just isn't reasonable.

Peter was speaking for all of them.

I agree, but I'm glad you said it first.

They did not yet have the fullness of the Sprit that they would receive at Pentecost, but they had enough to know that Jesus is the Christ.

They knew Jesus was the Christ because the Father revealed it to them. Again, that does not equate to being born again by the Resurrection and Gospel of Christ. Peter rejected the Gospel, which is understandable, because Prophecy does teach a physical Kingdom God promised to establish.

Christ Himself taught of that Kingdom.

And I view Peter's opposition to be representative of the rest of the disciples, because they would have all likely held to a similar view.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

So let's take a look at someone else. 'And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, "God, be merciful to me a sinner!"' (Luke 18:13).

Won't change the fact that the Gospel of Christ was a Mystery during the Age of Law, which is what Christ ministered under. He ministered within the framework of the revelation provided to men in that day. When He revealed mysteries, they were mysteries of the Kingdom, not mysteries of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

And I would make one other point here, Christ did not minister to the world during His ministry:


Matthew 15:24
King James Version (KJV)

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Matthew 10
King James Version (KJV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


The Kingdom relevant to Israel is the Kingdom prophesied in the Hebrew Scriptures. Christ's first role during His ministry was as the Messiah of Israel.

We have to ask, if in Matthew 16 it is at that time that Christ began to reveal to the disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, suffer, die, and rise again from the dead...

...how do we make a case that He was going about ISrael preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

And please do not ask me if I believe there are more than one Gospel, there is only one Gospel of JEsus Christ by which men can be eternally redeemed through.

But, we see the Gospel defined in it's basic element in the Old Testament here:


Galatians 3:6-8
King James Version (KJV)

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.


Now you and I, having the benefit of having the Mystery of the Gospel revealed to us by the Promised Spirit, and having the New Testament by which we can place the "Gospel" heard by Abraham into a proper context (knowing how God would bless all nations through Abraham's "Seed."), can know how this is in fact the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

But Abraham had no such revelation, and it was his belief that God would give him an heir from his own bowels (to the point where he knew if he sacrificed Isaac God would have to raise him from the dead) which is said to be the reason his faith was accounted t him for righteousness.

Again...that is not being freely justified by God's grace through the Redemption that is in Christ Jesus, which does not leave us to die still offering up the Old Testament provision for remission of sins and atonement and awaiting the Savior.

He has come.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Like David, this man had committed sins for which the Mosaic law gave no saving sacrifice (c.f. Numbers 15:30-31).,

Not relevant. All who came before the Law also sinned, and there was no "sacrifice" for a number of sins we could mention. One that stands out is Lot offering up his daughters as a sacrifice to desperately wicked men of great depravity. He was just as bad as they. Didn't he stop to think for a moment, "Wait a minute, they are Angels...they can take care of themselves!"

The fact remains that even if there had been a sacrifice it would not have given him eternal life:

Galatians 3:21-25
King James Version (KJV)

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


Regeneration is a result of our receiving the very life that Christ came to give, and this life, which we just read John speak about in His first Epistle, is given unto the world through the Sacrifice (death) of Christ:


John 6:49-53
King James Version (KJV)

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


All throughout the New Testament the teaching that eternal life is through Christ is reiterated.

Yet men seem to think one can be born again...and not have eternal life.

Eternal Life was not found prior to the Incarnation, and more specifically, before the Cross of Christ (see v.49-50, 53, above):


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Eternal Life is bestowed by Him that has obtained Eternal Redemption for us through His blood (death).

You can't have someone born again and not have life, and the provision of the Old Testament (manna) did not give life. Moses was most definitely one of the "fathers," and he was dead, meaning he had not received the life given to those who believe on Jesus' Offering of Himself, the giving of His...

...flesh.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

If he had been as eloquent as David, he would have said, '....You do not desire sacrifice or I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart-- these, O God, you will not despise' (Psalm 51:16-17). He put his faith in Yeshua, 'the LORD saves.' And He did. 'I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.'

And as long as we view justification as equating to Eternal Redemption we might see this as the salvation Christ came to bestow, both to those in this Age, as well as to the Old Testament Saints.

Justified, yes, but they did not receive the promises, and they were not made perfect (which if you read Hebrews speaks of the Completion the Author and Finisher/Completer of our faith brought):


Hebrews 11:13
King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Hebrews 12:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


The Old Testament Saints were eternally redeemed retroactively.

Only faith in Christ can eternally redeem men, and it is through faith in His Name, not general faith in God, not acknowledging that Jesus Christ is in fact the Messiah, but specific faith in His death, burial, and Resurrection by which men can receive Eternal Salvation.

So what is the difference between the work of the Holy Spirit before Pentecost and afterwards? I quote from Geoff Thomas' book, The Holy Spirit (Reformation Heritage, ISBN 978-1-60178-156-7).

The Holy Spirit indwelt true O.T. believers.No one can be born again, believe, repent or make one step of spiritual progress without the inward work of the Holy Spirit. In fact, no one can persevere in faith for one second without the ongoing internal work of the Spirit-- neither in the O.T. nor in the N.T.. Without the Holy Spirit constantly in and at work in their hearts, believers will immediately apostatize.

But having laid that foundational continuity.....we must also ask, "In what ways did the indwelling work of the H.S. differ in the O.T. from the New, especially post-Pentecost?" Everyone accepts there was a difference, but what was it? The Spirit's indwelling in the O.T. was like a water dropper continually dripping a little water onto a sponge on a hot day. The Spirit's indwelling in the N.T. is like a pressure hose jetting water into a sponge with excess water pouring out everywhere.

Think of a dry sponge on a hot day. Now imagine a water dropper. The dropper drips water so slowly onto the sponge that while it gets wet, it never fills up so much that the water runs out of the sponge. This was the O.T. believers' and the N.T. disciples' experience of the Spirit [before Pentecost]. Christ kept them supplied with a continual 'dripping of the Spirit' that kept them spiritually alive and fruitful, but rarely so much that their spiritual life overflowed into the lives of others. The same was true of the O.T. saints as a whole But now imagine someone takes a pressure washer and starts jetting the sponge......Welcome to Pentecost. Welcome to what Jesus was predicting in John 7:37-39.

But why the delay? Because 'Jesus was not yet glorified.' Prior to the N.T., the Spirit had relatively little truth to work with. But when Christ was glorified-- when He died, rose again and ascended-- then the Spirit had much more truth to work with. When the fullness of God's revelation of Chjrist had come, then the fullness of the Spirit could be poured out. At Pentecost we see a new plenitude, perpetuity, pervasiveness and publicity about the Spirit.......Narrow Jewish hearts would be so filled with Christ and the Spirit that they would burst their banks and overflow out to the nations with spiritual blessing as Peter did in Acts 2 for example.

In conclusion then, we can say that while the H.S. indwelt all O.T. believers, their experience of the Spirit was usually limited to a degree of personal filling, but they were rarely fully filled, and even more rarely did they overflow to others in witness, evangelism and witness. That filling... awaited the apex of the person and work of Christ, when the Holy Spirit was poured out on Him without measure and on His Church in an overflowing way.

Sorry, but I am not interested in fielding quotes from commentaries. I would be here forever, lol, if I had to also respond to commentaries.



I am only interested in what God has revealed to you, brother, through the years of study and meditation on His Word you have passed through.

The Spirit of God has always ministered in the hearts and lives of men, empowering them (filling) for ministries, providing enlightenment that they might have faith.

He still does that in the life of believers today, but, that is a separate issue from the eternal indwelling of God which Christ makes clear was not taking place during His ministry.

I leave you with one last passage to consider:


John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


Eternal Life was not given unto men at this point. It would not be until men are Baptized with the Holy Ghost, which according to Christ in John 14 :15-18 and 20-23 is when men are placed in God, and God indwells them on an eternal basis.

Thanks for the response, Martin, I appreciate the time it must have taken to present this.

I don't know what time it is there (it's 9:04 PM here on the east coast which is west of you, lol), but I hope you have a blessed day, or night, whichever is relevant when you read this, and that all here have a blessed evening (or day) and a blessed day in the Lord tomorrow.


God bless.

 

[1689Dave]

Do you see the "Gospel" Scripture defines as Abraham receiving?

“And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, proclaimed the gospel to Abraham ahead of time, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.”” (Galatians 3:8) (NET)

 

[1689Dave]

So the Jew that believes that Messiah will one day come is saved? And born again?


God bless.

Yes, “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14) (KJV 1900)

 

[Darrell C]

“And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, proclaimed the gospel to Abraham ahead of time, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.”” (Galatians 3:8) (NET)

Again, the Gospel, in it's basic form, is seen in Galatians 3:

Galatians 3:6-8
King James Version (KJV)

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.


And again, we know why it is the Gospel, because it spoke of the Seed, whereas Abraham only understood seed (descendants):


Galatians 3:16
King James Version (KJV)

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Abraham was not privy to the Gospel in it's full revelation. Not even the Disciples were, as shown previously.


God bless.

 

[1689Dave]

Again, the Gospel, in it's basic form, is seen in Galatians 3:

How are infants saved who die before hearing the gospel?

 

[Darrell C]

So the Jew that believes that Messiah will one day come is saved? And born again?

Yes, “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14) (KJV 1900)

Notice how you are unable to answer this basic question? It is because it denies the view that one must only have faith that a Messiah is coming in order to be born again.

The Gospel was a Mystery, truth not revealed prior to this Age.

Let's back up in 1 Corinthians and see the Hidden Wisdom of God, which is Christ, and the Gospel of Christ:


1 Corinthians 1:17-24
King James Version (KJV)

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.


Paul's ministry was built on one thing...the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The context here is...the Gospel of Christ.

He was not sent out to baptize, because baptism does not save, he was sent out to speak the Word which does save...the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

In the Book of Romans Paul begins by making an identical statement, "I am not ashamed of the Gospel...it is the power of God unto salvation."


19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.


Again, the Prophecy speaks of a future event. The wisdom of the wise is brought to nothing...by the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Men do not come into relationship with God through intellect or will, as John 1:13 states, men are born of God, not of blood (heritage), not of the will of the flesh (a man's determination/will), and not of the will of man (man's determination/will for another man/woman). JOhn 1:11-12 makes it clear that men began to become the sons of God by receiving Jesus Christ, and men hear of Jesus Christ through...the Gospel.

That is how men are saved.


22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:


It is the will of man that determines something is true because their idea of truth is validated in their minds/will. It is the will of man that determines they can themselves seek out truth and conclude rightly, but as you have mentioned...the natural man cannot understand nor receive the spiritual things of God in his own efforts.


23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;


And Paul goes right back to the focus of his teaching...the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The "but" stands in contrast to signs and man's wisdom, because Christ is...


24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.


Now let's take a look at at the context of 1 Corinthians 2:


1 Corinthians 2
King James Version (KJV)

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.


The context remains focused on...the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.


Again, in view is what he preached, and that was...the Gospel of Jesus Christ, Christ crucified, Christ the power of God.

Look again at 1 Corinthians 1:24...But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Power for what? Power unto salvation.

Christ is the power and wisdom of God.


6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:


Again the preaching of the Gospel is contrasted with the wisdom of men, and Paul states we speak the Wisdom of God in a mystery, the Hidden Wisdom, which God ordained before the world began, just as he states in Romans 16...

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


No man was privy to the Hidden Wisdom, the Mystery of the Gospel. That is what Paul preached. Had the rulers of this world known, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory, and inf fact Satan would have assembled the most efficient security detail to make sure that the Lord dashed not even His foot against a rock.

And he quotes Isaiah...

Isaiah 64:4
For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

...and reiterates Isaiah's statement...


9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.


Most preach this as speaking of how great Heaven is going to be, but, that is not the context in which this quote is found. It is found in a context centered on...

...the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and the unveiling of the Hidden Wisdom of God, which no man knew prior to the Mysteryof the Gospel of Jesus Christ being revealed.

Now, Who reveals the Gospel to men?


10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


As Christ stated, the Comforter, when He came, would convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgement:


John 16:7-9 King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


The Ministry of the Comforter is first and foremost to the lost of this world. He is the One that enlightens the natural mind to the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And that is how it must be because...


1 Corinthians 2:13-14
King James Version (KJV)

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

How are infants saved who die before hearing the gospel?

You ask really great questions, my friend.

Understand that man has always been subject to the will of God, beginning in the Garden, and the fact is that it is to the revelation provided to men that God holds men responsible for. We see that principle here:


Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


The point the Writer makes is that those who rejected Moses' Law (the Covenant of Law) will not be held to as severe a punishment as those who reject Christ, His Sacrifice, His Covenant, and the ministry of the Spirit, the Comforter, Who is the One that enlightens men in this Age to the truths God wishes to impart (the Gospel of Jesus Christ).

Secondly, we must understand that the "Law" of God has a basic meaning of the will of God, and that God makes His will known to all men, despite whether they have heard direct revelation such as God speaking to men face to face, God speaking to men through other men, or God speaking to men through His Word:


Romans 2:11-16
King James Version (KJV)

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


In view are Gentiles who, unlike the Jews, did not have the Word of God, yet still they performed the things contained in the Law, because God wrote them on their hearts. This speaks of the internal witness all men receive.

God judges men based on their response to the revelation given them. Those in Moses Day are accountable to the revelation they were given. Those in our day are accountable to the revelation we are given.

Now, Man's problem is not that we are separated from God because we sin, but we sin because we are separated from God. That is how we are conceived, and that is how we are born into this world. It is not until the babe in the womb grows up and understands the concept of right and wrong that they become accountable. There is no set age, and children begin sinning very early. The first word they usually learn is "No!" lol

So I ask you, what sin does the babe in the womb commit? None. And we can look at God's grace bestowed upon people directly violate the known will of God, and know that GOd will show that same grace to those who die prior to a competent ability to respond to God's will.

Now, here is the thing, if you understand that not one Old Testament Saint died having professed specific faith in Christ, you will see an entire Old Testament of examples of the grace of God being shown to men and women apart from specific faith in Christ. Those justified by grace through faith responded in faith to the will of God, those who were not did not.


God bless.

 

[1689Dave]

You ask really great questions, my friend.

Understand that man has always been subject to the will of God, beginning in the Garden, and the fact is that it is to the revelation provided to men that God holds men responsible for. We see that principle here:


Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


The point the Writer makes is that those who rejected Moses' Law (the Covenant of Law) will not be held to as severe a punishment as those who reject Christ, His Sacrifice, His Covenant, and the ministry of the Spirit, the Comforter, Who is the One that enlightens men in this Age to the truths God wishes to impart (the Gospel of Jesus Christ).

Secondly, we must understand that the "Law" of God has a basic meaning of the will of God, and that God makes His will known to all men, despite whether they have heard direct revelation such as God speaking to men face to face, God speaking to men through other men, or God speaking to men through His Word:


Romans 2:11-16
King James Version (KJV)

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


In view are Gentiles who, unlike the Jews, did not have the Word of God, yet still they performed the things contained in the Law, because God wrote them on their hearts. This speaks of the internal witness all men receive.

God judges men based on their response to the revelation given them. Those in Moses Day are accountable to the revelation they were given. Those in our day are accountable to the revelation we are given.

Now, Man's problem is not that we are separated from God because we sin, but we sin because we are separated from God. That is how we are conceived, and that is how we are born into this world. It is not until the babe in the womb grows up and understands the concept of right and wrong that they become accountable. There is no set age, and children begin sinning very early. The first word they usually learn is "No!" lol

So I ask you, what sin does the babe in the womb commit? None. And we can look at God's grace bestowed upon people directly violate the known will of God, and know that GOd will show that same grace to those who die prior to a competent ability to respond to God's will.

Now, here is the thing, if you understand that not one Old Testament Saint died having professed specific faith in Christ, you will see an entire Old Testament of examples of the grace of God being shown to men and women apart from specific faith in Christ. Those justified by grace through faith responded in faith to the will of God, those who were not did not.


God bless.

Thanks for the details. The biggest problem with your view is that it is legalistic and makes believing the gospel a work of the flesh. The way I understand, is that God imparts the New Birth, enabling people to believe the gospel at a spiritual level. And their belief is evidence God saved them. So even born again infants, or believers like Abraham have salvation based on the New Birth. And proven by obedience to whatever light God provides for them to walk in.