1689Dave
Well-Known Member
One cannot recognize the Messiah unless they are born again, else the Pharisees would not have killed the Messiah.
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Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?
- Thread starter Darrell C
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The teaching that Jesus is the Christ is at the heart of the Gospel. It is what the Lord Jesus and the Apostles taught.
John 4:25-26; 11:27; 20:31; Acts 2:36; 8:5; 9:20-22; 16:31; 18:5, 28.
Furthermore, 'No one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit' (1 Corinthians 12:3).
'Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His' (Romans 8:9).
Now have a look through the Gospels. People who call Jesus 'Teacher' or 'Rabbi' often got a sharp response (e.g. Matthew 12:38). But those who called Him 'Lord' or 'Son of David' (i.e. Messiah) received their desires (e.g. Matthew 15:22; Mark 11:47).
Not sure how you see the sovereignty of God saving men in both Old and New Testaments as legalistic. Perhaps you could show me anything in what I said that supports the charge.
As I asked before, do you want a faith that is based on opinion, or faith based on what is actually found in Scripture?
Right, you have embraced the error of Reformed Theology.
And what you do is create two ways by which men can eternally redeemed, hence you teach two gospels.
Men can only be redeemed through the shed blood of Christ, and that took place long after Abraham was dead. If you want to believe God regenerates men in order to believe, then you must also embrace loss of salvation, because we see men who knew the truth (because God showed it to them) who rejected the Word given in Old Testament eras...
Romans 1:18-21
King James Version (KJV)
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
This isn't saying these men were saved, it is saying that God revealed Himself to them and they rejected the truth.
And we see those who reject the truth in the New Testament/Covenant Era:
Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version (KJV)
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
2 Peter 2:20-22
King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Spiritual truth has always been revealed to men by God, but, that does not mean men were saved because they were shown the truth.
You have entire Bible filled with examples of men being given truth and rejecting it.
Again, do want a faith built on the Word of God, or on your opinion? Because until you address the Scripture and points, as well as provide a Scriptural presentation for what you think is true, all you offer is opinion. And making derisive comments doesn't do that.
Continued...
Saved from an eternal perspective, yes, eternally redeemed?
No:
Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
You need to reveal how men were eternally saved in the Old Testament, and, tell me why the Writer is in error in his statements here, which show Christ obtained eternal life for men by dying on the Cross, and redeemed the transgressions that were under the Law.
And that is the greatest problem with denying the magnitude of the Cross, it creates the need for two types of salvation: one through Christ, and then the salvation through which the Old Testament were saved.
Born again infants?
Scripture?
So there are many "lights?"
Sorry, I reject the Oprah Winfrey gospel," salvation is through the Cross of Christ alone.
God bless.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
“So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.” (Romans 9:16) (KJV 1900)
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
If salvation is conditional, it is of works. And only for the self-righteous who are good enough to embrace it. But God saves those who are so sinful they cannot do this. And this is salvation by grace.
That is clearly shown to be a false opinion by Scripture itself.
The Disciples had it revealed to them that Jesus was the Christ (Messiah), the Son of the Living God:
Matthew 16:15-17
King James Version (KJV)
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
But He did not reveal to them the Gospel of Christ, and we see Peter in opposition to the Gospel of Christ:
Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
You already know the Disciples were not believing after the Resurrection, and the Lord had to convince these disciples who were unbeliving in the Resurrection.
We also see here that it was at this time the Lord revealed to the disciples the Gospel.
We also wee that the Lord forbade them from telling others that which the Father revealed to them (that He was the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of the Living God).
We see Peter saying, essentially, "Lord, the only think that can keep me from an eternity in Hell...this shall never be!"
So your opinion is clearly false, and the only question that needs to be asked is when are you going to conform your opinions to what the Word of God teaches?
God bless.
Show me any "conditions" I have imposed, and show this is not a false argument.
Men were held to conditions in the Old Testament, that is not open for debate.
And the fact is, you are still unable to distinguish between the conditions imposed in the Old Testament, by which men were either justified or not, and the freely given Justification which is through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus.
Hebrews 8:7-9
King James Version (KJV)
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Twaddle.
So you categorize sin. Good to know.
Understand that it is not sin, or the depth of sin which demands the Redemption which is only through the Blood (Death) of Christ: man's separation from God.
Men sin because they are separated from God, thus their eternal judgment will be based on the depth of their sin. It doesn't matter how good one is on a temporal level, their primary problem is they are separated from God, thus are destined for Eternal Separation.
You need to understand this, because if you think there is a degree of sin which makes one worthy of eternal separation, then you are missing one of the most basic lessons God has given you in His Word.
You have no understanding of salvation in Christ whatsoever.
Address the Scripture and points.
God bless.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
What happens if you decide not to accept Jesus?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. They had faith in Christ because they were born of the Spirit.
And until you acknowledge the Word of God, and stop preaching the Opinion of Dave, you will never understand Salvation in Christ.
God bless.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
I'm trying to find out if your response saved you = works. Or if God first opened your heart so you believed in Jesus because of the inner experience wrought by the new birth.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Are you saying faith is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit? “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22) (KJV 1900)
Just not the case:
Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Christ forbade them from telling men He was the Christ.
And it is at this time that Christ conveys the Gospel unto them.
And I have given you numerous Scriptures, Martin, that show the Disciples did not believe Christ would rise from the dead before the REsurrection, and that they did not believe after the Resurrection until He came to Him.
So your statement...
...is not supported by Scripture, but nullified.
Correct. And that is how the disciples (at least Peter) could affirm that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God, because God revealed it to them/him.
Secondly, this is Post-Pentecost, after the Spirit was given to men.
You will not find any support that men were born again believers trusting in Christ, but the very opposite.
They did have faith that Messiah was coming, but, men are not saved by believing Christ is going to come. If this were true, then we have to count all Hebrew Scripture believing Jews to already be saved, and we should stop trying to convince them that Christ has come, and that Christ has...
...risen.
So you prove your position false in quoting this, because no man had the Spirit on an eternal basis prior to Pentecost:
John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
John 14:20-23
King James Version (KJV)
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
But I am glad you acknowledge that one cannot be born again apart from the eternal indwelling.
We are made new through receiving the eternal life we receive when we are immersed into God.
The indwelling of God, and our being baptized into Him is the same event.
But they did not receive Reconciliation, Atonement, Eternal Indwelling, or Eternal Redemption.
We simply can't impose that into the Old Testament Eras.
God bless.
Pre Abraham. Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises,
Post the law, Heb 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
V 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: ???
Ten days after Jesus ascended to the right hand of God, fifty Days after Jesus was raised from the dead, incorruptible, David for sure and I believe the others also, were still, both, dead and buried, They were and are still, dead in faith and or if you will, dead in Christ.
They were told of the promise of life, yet they all died in faith not having obtained the promise. Heb 11:39
Consider 1 Cor 15:17,18
??? The promise. Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
It is Christ, the anointed of God, Jesus, the Word made flesh, born of the virgin Mary, that had the promise of God. If Jesus the Christ does not receive the promise, no one would ever receive the promise. Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Jesus, born of Mary.
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
The promise is life from the dead, Eternal life.
Abraham still has not inherited the promise. He is still an heir of the promise. He is dead in Christ.
1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. John 3:7 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Even so equals God will bring those who are asleep in Jesus by resurrection from the dead to inherit, enter, the kingdom of God. V 16 The dead in Christ will rise first.
Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Heb 5:9
Tense of those?
IMHO, according to the Word of God, I do not think they have been born again.
Post the law, Heb 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
V 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: ???
Ten days after Jesus ascended to the right hand of God, fifty Days after Jesus was raised from the dead, incorruptible, David for sure and I believe the others also, were still, both, dead and buried, They were and are still, dead in faith and or if you will, dead in Christ.
They were told of the promise of life, yet they all died in faith not having obtained the promise. Heb 11:39
Consider 1 Cor 15:17,18
??? The promise. Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
It is Christ, the anointed of God, Jesus, the Word made flesh, born of the virgin Mary, that had the promise of God. If Jesus the Christ does not receive the promise, no one would ever receive the promise. Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Jesus, born of Mary.
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
The promise is life from the dead, Eternal life.
Abraham still has not inherited the promise. He is still an heir of the promise. He is dead in Christ.
1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. John 3:7 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Even so equals God will bring those who are asleep in Jesus by resurrection from the dead to inherit, enter, the kingdom of God. V 16 The dead in Christ will rise first.
Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Heb 5:9
Tense of those?
IMHO, according to the Word of God, I do not think they have been born again.
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Dave, I have more than answered this question in the posts I responded to.Salvation is always, in the Old Testament, as well as the New, brought about by Sovereign God. The Old Testament Saints were saved by grace through faith from an eternal perspective, meaning their eternal destinies were secured through their faith and belief and...works. Now don't get excited, because works are an inevitable result of faith in God. We are, when we are saved, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, and, just as the Old Testament Saint was justified, so too Christians are.
But that is not Eternal Redemption. That deals with our daily conversation, not with our eternal destinies. The primary difference between our salvation and their salvation is that we are Eternally Redeemed at the moment of salvation, whereas they were not. There was never any danger of them going to Hell, but, they still needed Eternal Redemption.
Christ did that when He died on the Cross in their stead, atoning for their sins, and reconciling them to God by bringing them into eternal union with God.
Now, when Christ died on the Cross He did so for the intent of establishing the New Covenant, making obsolete the Old (Covenant of Law), and to build the Church, which is built upon the profession of Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God. The New Covenant went into force when the Promised Spirit was sent. That is when men began to be Baptized with the Holy Ghost, or in other words, immersed into God in eternal union.
And just as the Spirit revealed spiritual truth in the Old Testament, even so He is doing that now. He is not "another Spirit" from the Spirit in the Old Testament, He is another Comforter, and the difference is in the Truth He is revealing to men. He is revealing the Gospel Mystery, and He does this directly to the heart of the hearer.
So it works like this: a man hears the Gospel, the Holy Spirit reveals to his heart this is truth, and this...
...generates a response.
The man either embraces the truth and receives Christ (and is born again through eternal union with God), or, he rejects it. I showed you two passages which show men, in this Age, having been shown the truth and rejecting it.
Now, in regards to the response, it is like this: you are in the grocery store, and someone sneaks up on you and dumps a bucket of ice-water on your head. Now I ask you, was it your will that generated the response, and quite likely the responses you would have? Did you intellectually decide to gasp in shock, and perhaps fear, at what happened? Would it be your will that generates your response when you realize the truth of what has happened? A couple responses you might have is first anger. You look at the person and ask them what they think they're doing. Maybe its an old school friend, and your response is humor.
The point is...you don't generate those responses, they are generated by the event.
It is no different when one hears the Gospel, the Comforter enlightens his mind to the truth, a response is generated...
...not calculated.
The natural man has no ability to understand the spiritual things of God, and is dependent on God revealing those truths.
And that is precisely how one is saved.
No, your response doesn't save you, only God can save, He is Sovereign. He is the Author and Finisher of our faith.
Remember that God went and got Abraham.
He came to Moses.
He called David.
He sent Christ.
God bless.
I already responded to this.
There is a difference between saving faith and faith in the life of one already saved, who is indwelt by the Spirit, Who, I would remind you...generates that faith.
You are improperly imposing a salvific context into the faith in view in this verse.
Back up to Galatians 3 and reread the passage I already gave you on this matter:
Galatians 3:21-26
King James Version (KJV)
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Paul is not talking about faith here, he is speaking about The Faith.
Prior to that men were under the Law, that was the provision for that Age.
God bless.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Faith of the mind = intellectual assent. Faith of the Spirit = saving faith.
That is correct.
This is incorrect. This is not Post-Law. And only David and Samuel are within the Law, the others are Pre-Law. No-one here is Post-Law.
Is this a question?
He has been made perfect like as we, and received of the promises the same things we have received, with the exception of being born again while alive:
Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
The point is that the promise in view is being made perfect, which refers to completion.
He is saying that we are made perfect together, and this perfection is accomplished through the Work of Christ.
He is still an heir, in regards to our eternal inheritance, which will not reach completion until the Eternal State.
However, He is not "dead in Christ," in the sense that he died being in Christ. No man was in Christ until Pentecost.
We can see in the following passage that the Disciples of Christ were not in Christ during His ministry:
John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
John 14:20-23
King James Version (KJV)
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Continued...
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