The focus is on what is believed.
You said...
What is believed to receive the promise?
God bless.
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Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?
- Thread starter Darrell C
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The focus is on what is believed.
You said...
What is believed to receive the promise?
God bless.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
It says Abraham believed the gospel and God considered it righteousness. Able believed walking in the light he had. As did Job and his friends.
So it is believing the gospel as God reveals it. We have more of it now than many in the OT had. They had the Holy Spirit with them. We have the Holy Spirit in us.
Acts tells us that God opened up their minds to receive the good news and get saved, so He does grant His own new hearts/minds to receive Jesus and get saved!This is one of the worst errors of Reformed teaching, that God regenerates men that they might have faith in Christ.
The problem with that is that we have several passages which shows unbelievers who know the truth and have rejected it. I will give one passage, and ask that the Scripture and the points raised be addressed. So far not one person has done this.
Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version (KJV)
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Verse 26 makes it clear these men knew the truth. God is not going to hold them accountable for something they do not know.
In v.28 we see who these adversaries are, because they are contrasted with those who rejected the Covenant of Law, which is what the Writer often does in this epistle, he contrasts the Covenant of Law (called here Moses' Law, and elsewhere "the First Covenant") with the New Covenant.
So if we take Reformed teaching as being true (which it is not), we must equally conclude that born again believers can in fact, contrary to most of the New Testament...lose their salvation.
The simple solution is to simply maintain the context of this Chapter and see that in view are those wh, having the Truth, reject it, and are said to be worthy of a more severe punishment than their Old Testament counterparts, those who rejected the Covenant of Law.
Here is what these rejecters are rejecting:
1. Jesus Christ the Son of God;
2. The New Covenant;
3. The Sacrifice of Christ;
4. The Ministry of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Grace, Who is the Comforter.
They are no more born again than the Hebrews of 5:10-6:6 (who are ignorant even of the ABCs of the Doctrine of Christ presented in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament)).
And just so you know, there is a difference between Saving Faith and the fruit produced by the Spirit in the believer.
It is the Comforter that enlightens the natural mind to the Truth of the Gospel:
John 16:7-9
King James Version (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
If you will notice, the Comforter convicts the world of sin, because they believe not on the Lord Jesus Christ.
God does not regenerate men that they might have saving faith, He ministers to natural men and enlightens their minds to the Gospel, and regenerates those who believe.
Continued...
First, where is your Scripture?
Secondly...why do you repeatedly ignore the Scripture and points raised to you?
Do you really want to have a faith that is built upon your opinion? Or on the Word of God?
Abraham did not know the Name of Jesus Christ, he "saw Jesus Christ's Day" in the promises he was given. That does not equate to believing on Jesus Christ as the risen Savior, which is the only way men can be eternally redeemed.
I have shown you Scripture states they did not receive the promises, yet here you are...trying to refute that.
So please present Scripture instead of just opinion.
God bless.
So the Jew that believes that Messiah will one day come is saved? And born again?
God bless.
Galatians 3:6-8
King James Version (KJV)
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Do you see the "Gospel" Scripture defines as Abraham receiving?
You and I can place that in a context of the Gospel of Jesus Christ...Abraham could not.
I would also remind you of Paul's later statement:
Galatians 3:22-25
King James Version (KJV)
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Those under Law, nor those before them, who had less revelation than those under the Law...did not have the Faith of Christ which was afterwards revealed.
God bless.
Now pay real close attention because I am only going to say this once. In John 3:3 it is Jesus who is speaking. Got it now?
What part of "past tense" don't you understand?
Perhaps if you addressed the Scripture and the points raised to your 'Jesus says so" exposition then you would not be making this response now.
Why such an aversion to the Word of God?
God bless.
Again, please post what part of John 3 the Lord is speaking of men in the past who saw the Kingdom of God?
Why do you continually ignore the points raised?
Here is another distinction between the Old Testament Saints and those who do enter the Kingdom:
Matthew 11:11
King James Version (KJV)
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Okay class, everyone together...
...dispensation.
God bless.
Ye must be born (past tense) again.
Because your points contradict what Jesus clearly stated.
What part of John 3:3 don't you understand?
Of the two of us I am the one who believes the word of God.
Jesus told Nicodemus, prior to Pentecost, that he must be born again. That verb is not future tense, but aorist tense. In order for Nicodemus to see the Kingdom of God he would have had to be born again prior to the time of the conversation, IE in the past.
So much for the "people were only born again after Pentecost" lie.
Acts 16:14
There seems to be a limited understanding of the role of the Holy Spirit.
We know the Holy Spirit was given selectively before Pentecost. Universally at Penetcost
Jhn 20:21
Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as myFather hath sent me, even so send I you.
Jhn 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
And we know. He never said wait til Pentecost
Jhn 20:30
And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
Jhn 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
A agree way, way, way before Pentecost... If they weren't you might as well rip Hebrews 11 out of your Bible... Brother Glen
Hebrews 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
When you can post the points and show why they contradict then you might have something. But, because your statement will be seen as false if you post the points, and your popular pulpit theology shown to be what is actually in contradiction to the Word of the Lord, you do not, so, I will do it for you:
Please post the part of John 3 where the Lord speaks of men in past who saw the Kingdom of God.
And while you are looking for that, I will post for those still reading the thread Christ's explanation to Nicodemus how men can be born from above, and born of the Spirit:
John 3:9-16
King James Version (KJV)
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
No man was born again prior to the Son of Man being lifted up.
Nicodemus should have immediately thought of Ezekiel 36 and 37, where God has promised to give Israel life.
God bless.
What part of...
Darrell C said: ↑
Perhaps if you addressed the Scripture and the points raised to your 'Jesus says so" exposition then you would not be making this response now.
...do you not understand?
That's a hoot.
You, who teach that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is mythical...
He also told men they must believe on Jesus Christ.
So why weren't the disciples doing that?
Mark 16:9-14
King James Version (KJV)
9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Here is Peter, in opposition to the Gospel of Jesus Christ...
...presented by none other than Jesus Himself:
Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
The reason? Because the Gospel of Jesus Christ was a Mystery in that Age (of Law), and not being revealed by Christ to men:
John 20:8-9
King James Version (KJV)
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
Continued...
Of course, because when men did finally have the Gospel of Christ revealed to them, and God revealed the Scriptures "that He must rise from the dead," and could place it in a context of "Christ is Risen" they would be born again.
The teaching is future tense, just as the receiving of the Comforter in John 14 is.
Maybe a fourth grade class (which you seem to have some experience with, seeing you mention it often enough) might swallow this attempt to deny what is evident in Christ's teachings, but not those who have their senses exercised to discern between good and evil.
And as already shown, how "these things can be," not "how these things are...
John 3:9-16
King James Version (KJV)
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I can keep posting these same simple truths as long as you want. I would prefer you deal with the points and Scripture.
He wasn't born again, TCassidy.
He didn't even understand what Christ taught from the revelation he had already been provided with (i.e., Ezekiel 36 and 37).
He responds in physical terms:
John 3
King James Version (KJV)
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Regeneration began to be a possibility among men after Christ died for men, and men began specifically believing on Christ as the risen Savior:
John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
We know when He came unto His Own.
We know when men began to believe on Him as the Risen Savior.
We know that this is how men are born of God and made children of God, sons of God:
1 John 5
King James Version (KJV)
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
It saddens me you will not address the points and the Scripture.
God bless.
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