Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

[Darrell C]

you will note that I spoke of those who looked beyond the sacrifices to the Lamb of God, the Lord our Righteousness.

And this is a fiction perpetrated on believers world-wide for quite a long time. It has no Biblical basis and the points raised to you deny the veracity of it.

Indeed, Christ is the only way of salvation, but He is 'foreordained before the foundation of the world' (1 Peter 1:20) and 'slain from the foundation of the world' (Revelation 13:8).

Christ was not "sacrificed before the foundation of the world," it (The Cross) was foreordained before the foundation of the world, lol.

Here...

Revelation 13:8
King James Version (KJV)

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

...we see the foreknowledge of God, not that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world.

Scripture makes that clear:


Galatians 4:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.


And just as John 1:11-13 makes clear, no man was born of God prior to that coming.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Not going to happen. No time. Sorry, but I have other, more important things to do. I saw you snowed some other poor guy on another thread with umpteen posts on the same subject. It's not big, and it's not clever. Keep it brief.

There is nothing more important than properly understanding Salvation in Christ.

Pick one point and address it. So far you have not.

And as far as "snowing some other poor guy," I would suggest you read what he said, and read the responses. As far as I am concerned anyone rejecting these simple truths is "the poor guy."

The true reason "it's not going to happen" is that these truths are undeniable. The "saved on credit" and "saved in advance by looking forward" to something not even revealed to men is perhaps one of the worst tragedies of Soteriology taking place. It's time to replace those doctrines of men with the Word of God.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

It is only by the Holy Spirit that anyone can trust in Christ and be reconciled with God. But that the Holy Spirit indwelt certain believers in the OT is without doubt (e.g. Numbers 27:18; Nehemiah 9:30; 1 Peter 1:11).

Again, fiction.

No man received the Eternal Indwelling of God, and to equate the filling of the Spirit and His Ministry towards man in the Old Testament denies some pretty clear teachings:


Ezekiel 36:27
King James Version (KJV)

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


John 14:15-23
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


And one more:


John 16:7
King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


Tell me men can be born again and not have received the Spirit of God, which was not given prior to Pentecost.

No Atonement, no Reconciliation.

No Reconciliation, no eternal indwelling.

No indwelling God...

...no Christian.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Likewise the Spirit prompted true prayer, inspired spiritual worship and produced fruit in the lives of OT believers (c.f. Zechariah 4:6) just as He does today.

I agree, but what has that to do with the Comforter, the Promised Spirit...being sent after Christ returned to Heaven?

What has that to do with the fact that the Body of Christ, the Church...did not begin until Pentecost? We know that because it was not until then that men were made one in Christ, just as Christ teaches they will be in John 14:15-23.

You are equating the filling of the Spirit, which has always taken place, with the Ministry which is clearly taught not to be taking place prior to Pentecost.


Acts 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


And the inevitable result is that there is an equation to being justified by grace through faith in the Old Testament with being eternally forgiven, reconciled to God, and eternally indwelt.

Christ makes the distinction...why don't you?


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

We have 'the same Spirit of faith' that they had (2 Corinthians 4:13).

2 Corinthians 4:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;


How is having the same spirit of faith, the same Spirit of faith...nullify the fact that the Promised Spirit was not sent until Pentecost?

How does the fact that we still have faith which is supplied through the grace of God...nullify that men were not eternally forgiven, reconciled to God, and eternally indwelt prior to Pentecost?

You are saying that they received the promises when Scripture makes it clear they did not. If you addressed the points and Scripture you would see that.

The Spirit was given in the OT saints prospectively, as pardon of sin was given-- in view of the satisfaction which Christ would render to God.

Sorry, but that is not what Scripture teaches.

It's a shame you won't read the Scripture given, because you would see the error of imposing the Promised Spirit prior to His coming.

There is no doubt that the large majority of OT Israelites were devoid of grace (Isaiah 1:9), but that there was a remnant according to the election of grace' (Romans 11:5) among them is also true, and they were saved by Christ, by grace and through faith just as we are.

Just because their was a remnant of faithful believers doesn't mean we write into that something obviously contrary to what is taught in Scripture.

They were not saved by Christ in the eternal sense until Christ died in their stead, reconciled them to God, and placed them in eternal union with God.

Again, here is the Gospel as given to Abraham:


Galatians 3:6-8
King James Version (KJV)

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.


Not that Christ would die in his stead, but that through his seed all nations of the earth would be blessed. He did not understand it was through The Seed.

The reason? Glad you asked:


Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


The Revelation of the Mystery was kept secret since the world began.

So it is quite impossible for men to trust in Christ in saving faith until they knew why. Not even the Disciples trusted Christ prior to the Cross, because the revelation of the Mystery wasn't given to them:


John 20:9
King James Version (KJV)

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

It would not be until Christ came and rebuked them that they would begin to believe, and it would not be until the Promised Spirit was given that they would...understand fully, and go out and preach the revealed Mystery.

So sorry you feel that a detailed response that presents Scripture to support the points is "snowing" people. But until you can actually provide a valid presentation for men being born again prior to Pentecost, and, address these simple truths shown you, you are the only one snowing people, and the "poor guy" in the conversation.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

My apologies for taking so long to come back to you. I have three sermons to compose in short order.

Excuses excuses.

Time to learn a new tune.

Also, I briefly lost the will to live when I saw nine replies to my last post!

Yes because detailed responses to arguments just shouldn't take place on a Doctrinal Discussion Forum.

Not my fault that the Facebook crowd has taken over this forum.

With respect, that is not debate, it is spamming.

First, it is not respect you are showing, far from it.

Secondly, every response is generated in each post, nothing is copy and pasted, unless it is a quote from a previous post that has relevance toa point.

Third, your hypocrisy on this point makes me sick. It's okay if you do a long post, filled with Scripture references nobody is going to take the time to look at. It's odd that you actually delete the Scripture from a debate. But then it's not really a debate, is it. You would have to have more than one verse to support your view in order for debate to take place.

{QUOTE="Martin Marprelate"] The teaching that Jesus is the Christ is at the heart of the Gospel. It is what the Lord Jesus and the Apostles taught.
John 4:25-26; 11:27; 20:31; Acts 2:36; 8:5; 9:20-22; 16:31; 18:5, 28.

I've already addressed this, numerous times, in numerous threads. If you set your contempt aside and understood why that guy was poor, you might see this is irrelevant to the discussion at this point.

The Father revealed to men that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God, but, we know for certain that this is not the same as trusting in Christ as having died for us:


Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


Peter knew Jesus was the Messiah, but, that doesn't change the fact that...

1. Christ charges them that they...tell no man. So much for the disciples preaching Christ, much less Christ crucified...which is the Gospel;

2. It was at that time the Lord began to show unto the disciples...the Gospel;

3. Peter is in opposition to...the Gospel. Training? Hardly, they were not privy to the Mystery of the Gospel;

4. The Lord charges him with not savoring the things which be of God...the Gospel;

5. The Lord charges him with savoring the things which be of men.


Yet you teach him as born again.

So if that is the case, then we must equally conclude that men can be born again rejecting the Gospel, they do not need to know about Christ dying on the Cross in their stead, and they do not have to have the eternal indwelling of God.

I don't find such a gospel in Scripture.

And you're welcome in advance for the avalanche you are about to be snowed under by.




Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Martin, you can't really expect me to field multiple references to verify your position...for you.

If you think it is relevant...post it.

I stated my premise and then gave supporting texts. What more do you want?

What I don't want is to have to search out Scripture references which are usually irrelevant to the point one is trying to make. I have done this often enough and seldom does the reference support the argument presented by the one giving vague references.

How hard is it to post the Scripture?

You do not even address the point I give you here, where the Disciples knew the Lord was the Messiah, yet they were not believing on Him. I gave you multiple passages already that I took the time to post so you wouldn't have to go and look for them, and you ignored them.

Well I wish you wouldn't write your quotes out in full;

I can understand, because it makes it hard to continue in the doctrine you hold.

You cannot show that the Disciples were unbelieving and hard of heart, even after the Resurrection:


Mark 16:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.


John 20:9
King James Version (KJV)

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

I know the Bible, thanks

I'm having a hard time with that claim, because you do not seem to recognize some simple truths, and seek to impose the Promises of God into Eras they were not given, despite being given Scripture that makes that clear:


Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

It makes your posts long and unwieldy.

On the contrary, it makes my posts detailed and on point, supported by Scripture all you can do is delete in your responses.

But I don't understand your point. 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.'

The point is...no-one was believing:


John 16:30-32
King James Version (KJV)

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


Mark 16:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.


It's a simple point, but one most kick against in futility.

You just cannot miss the Lord's Own statement to that effect.

Of course Christ taught men must believe on Him, and when the time came for that to begin, the Disciples believed. Until then, they could not:


John 16:12-14
King James Version (KJV)

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


I'll just never understand why people reject what Christ teaches. I guess it is a matter of pride. Kind of hard to think of one's self being saved so long and missing something so simple and prevalent in the New Testament, verified in every Book of the New Testament.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' 'Blessed are you, Simon BarJonah, for heaven and earth has not revealed this to you but My Father in heaven.' End of story.

For those not as familiar with Scripture, this is found in Matthew 16, where we see this is not the "end of the story:"


Matthew 16:13-23
King James Version (KJV)

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' 'Blessed are you, Simon BarJonah, for heaven and earth has not revealed this to you but My Father in heaven.' End of story.

For some, I suppose, but not for those who keep reading.

To equate the revelation of Jesus Christ as the Messiah sent from God with trusting Christ for Eternal Salvation is one of the greatest errors of popular pulpit theology. Yes, Peter knew Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God, for the Father revealed this to him. But, Peter (nor any of the disciples, nor any man) immediately rebukes Jesus Christ, denying the Gospel as presented by Christ.

Is rebuking the Lord also a sign of being born again? Denying the Gospel?

Just how exactly were born again in the Old Testament? Peter states we are born again by the Resurrection of Christ from the dead. John teaches we are born again by receiving Christ? Can we receive Christ as we rebuke Him and reject the Gospel?

The obvious answer is no, so we wonder just what it is popular pulpit theology is offering men.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Peter believes on the Lord Jesus Christ with a God-given faith and is saved, and, indeed, blessed. End of story.

The end of the story? You mean you have deleted Scripture from the Word of God too? What about the fact that the Lord states they are not believing, both before the Cross and after the Resurrection? What about the fact that Peter denies...he even knows the Lord Jesus Christ, saying he would even die with Christ?

What about the fact that Peter was not reconciled to God through the Atonement, was not baptized into Christ, and was not in eternal union with God?

No, there is much more to the story than your declaration of finality.

Your texts:

John 4:25-26
King James Version (KJV)

25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.


How does this change what we already know? You assume that this woman is born again because she believes Jesus to be the Messiah?

Yes. 'Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God' (1 John 5:1).

Satan believes that Jesus is the Christ. Is he born of God as well?

This is a statement that is Post-Pentecostal, it applies to this Age, not the age in which the Mystery was not being revealed.

The disciples, in the Age of Law knew He was the Christ, the Son of the Living God, yet they were not born of God.

They were unbelievers:


Mark 16:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Here is Scripture showing that the Disciples were not believing on Christ as the Savior. The Messiah, yes, but not the Risen Savior, which the only way men can be born again.

Firstly, they did believe on Him as Saviour.

No, actually they didn't, that is made clear over and over:


John 16:30-32
King James Version (KJV)

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

Firstly, they did believe on Him as Saviour. 'You have the words of eternal life.' They were believing on Him for eternal life; how is that not salvation? What they didn't understand is how salvation was effected.

This is how men receive eternal life:


John 3:9-16
King James Version (KJV)

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


The burden is on you to show how men received eternal life in the Old Testament.

Have fun trying to proof-text that particular heresy.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

What they didn't understand is how salvation was effected.

Oh, okay.

So you preach and teach that men can have eternal life without knowing how men can have eternal life?

Exactly how do men receive eternal life according to the gospel of Martin?

Secondly, there is very little about the resurrection in the OT.

There's a reason for that, lol:


Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


Ephesians 3
King James Version (KJV)

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


You'll find that 1 Corinthians 1-2 makes the exact same point: Christ is the wisdom and power of God unto salvation, and...it was the Hidden Wisdom of God revealed by the Spirit, which is the holy Ghost come down from Heaven by which we preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Mystery:


1 Peter 1:10-12
King James Version (KJV)

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Unless one accepts the typology of the sacrifice of Isaac and the life of Joseph, I can only think of Isaiah 53:10-11. The OT saints believed according to the light that they had in the Messiah that would come.

And that is how they were "saved." They believed that which God revealed to them in their time.

But...they were not eternally redeemed through that faith and belief.

And anyone preaching they were is preaching another gospel. That is just a fact.

Men can only be eternally redeemed through the Cross and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Today, no one born of the Spirit would deny the resurrection because it's there in our Bibles.

This is true. IT was in fact in their Bible as well (the Hebrew Scriptures), but, they were not given understanding of the Resurrection.

Not even the Disciples of Christ were made privy to this knowledge, it was Hidden Wisdom, a Mystery.

And I will simply repost just one of the several posts given in response to this same argument:

Exactly what it says, the Father revealed unto them that Jesus was in fact the Christ.

But Martin, do not mistake that for the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel, because when Christ gives them the Gospel immediately afterwards, Peter (the spokesman) rejects the Gospel:

Even today, when the Bible is so readily available, new (and not-so-new) converts are dreadfully ignorant about the Gospel.

This is almost humorous: you speak of the Bible being "readily available" yet you delete the Scriptures presented as support for the points being made. Almost.

It's actually sad.

Peter believed in Christ.

I agree, unfortunately Christ did not "live" up to Peter's popular pulpit Eschatology.

And we see their carnal understanding here:


Acts 1:4-7
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


Of course, you don't see the thousand years in Revelation 20 either, so it is no wonder the significance of this is lost on you.


Continued...

 

[Yeshua1]

And that is how they were "saved." They believed that which God revealed to them in their time.

But...they were not eternally redeemed through that faith and belief.

And anyone preaching they were is preaching another gospel. That is just a fact.

Men can only be eternally redeemed through the Cross and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.




This is true. IT was in fact in their Bible as well (the Hebrew Scriptures), but, they were not given understanding of the Resurrection.

Not even the Disciples of Christ were made privy to this knowledge, it was Hidden Wisdom, a Mystery.




This is almost humorous: you speak of the Bible being "readily available" yet you delete the Scriptures presented as support for the points being made. Almost.

It's actually sad.




I agree, unfortunately Christ did not "live" up to Peter's popular pulpit Eschatology.

And we see their carnal understanding here:


Acts 1:4-7
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


Of course, you don't see the thousand years in Revelation 20 either, so it is no wonder the significance of this is lost on you.


Continued...

The ot saints were just as saved as you and me are!

 

[Darrell C]

So what does it mean that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ?

That He is the One spoken of throughout the O.T.
That He is the Seed of the woman who should crush the serpent's head (Genesis 3:15).
That He is the Seed of Abraham through whom all nations should be blessed (Genesis 12:3 etc.).
That He is the High Priest in the order of Melchizedek (Psalm 110:4).
That He is the Prophet like Moses that all men must hear (Deuteronomy 18:15).
That He is the King to whom the nations are given as an inheritance (Psalm 2:6-8).
That He is the One whose dominion shall never pass away (Daniel 7:14)
That He is the LORD our righteousness (Jeremiah 23:6)
That He is the One who shall shepherd the LORD's flock (Ezekiel 34:23).
Etc., etc.

All that, and more, is contained in Peter's confession, and it was revealed to him by God the Holy Spirit via the New Birth (1 John 5:1 again!).

So when an Israelite came with his offering to the temple, he either thought to himself, "Well, I've done my duty for God today; I'm all sorted out with him until the next time,"

Twaddle. Ineffable twaddle, in fact. Casting all who offered up sacrifice according to the command of God might sound good, but the fact is many are seen to be in obedience to the provision given for atonement and remission of sins.

And when you can understand the difference between that and the Atonement and eternal remission of sins as promised by God in the Old Testament and realized in Jesus Christ through His Work, then you will see that those who offered up sacrifice received exactly what they were told they would.

And nothing more.

or his eyes and his heart were opened by the Holy Spirit, and he saw himself as a lost sinner rightly under the judgement of God and cried out in his heart, 'For You do not desire sacrifice or I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart-- these, O God, You will not despise' (Psalm 51:16-17).

Doesn't change the fact that this is how men received atonement and remission of sins. It began in the Garden, and was valid until...

...the Cross.

And he looked by faith at the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world, and 'went down to his house justified' (Luke 18:14).

Great, but he was not justified freely through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus:


Romans 3:20-26
King James Version (KJV)

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


The mythology that men were believing in Jesus Christ prior to the Resurrection has amply been shown to be just that...mythology.

Only Christ can eternally redeem men:


Hebrews 9:12 & 15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


The blood of bulls and goats could not take away sins, but, the Blood of Christ can and does on an eternal basis:


Hebrews 10:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

The ot saints were just as saved as you and me are!

Actually they were not. As you have been told repeatedly, they...


1. Had not had their sins forgiven;

2. Were not reconciled to God;

3. Were not eternally indwelt;

4. Were not liberated from Sheol/Hades;

5. Had not gone to be with God in Heaven;

6. Were not privy to the Gospel of Christ.


I'd say our salvation has an advantage. We will die in faith as they did, the primary difference being...we have received the Promises of God while we are alive.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Such a man was one like Simeon, 'who was waiting for the Consolation of Israel' (Luke 2:25),

You are exactly right...they were waiting.

Unlike your teaching that they had already received the Consolation of Israel.

Why do you think the Lord states that another Comforter is going to be sent? Why you do not see the distinction between the Lord's Ministry to Israel and the Lord's Ministry to the world is beyond me.

and I say that such people were born again as surely as anyone who has ever lived.

Many do, but, like them, you have no Scripture to base such a teaching on, and you cannot address the points and Scripture that make it clear men were not born of God, born again, born from above, or born of the Spirit until Christ came, died in man's stead, and sent the Comforter.


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


1 Peter 1:3
King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


Eternal Life is only through Christ:


John 6:49-53
King James Version (KJV)

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


So again, the burden is on you to show what means were used to give men eternal life before Christ came, died, was buried, and arose again, that men might believe on His Name.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

I'm afraid that that's all you're going to get from me.

I know. But it gives me an opportunity to not only teach what Scripture makes clear, but to address the errors of popular pulpit mythology.

If I had time I would trawl through all your other posts, but I think I would only be repeating myself.

That is in fact what you have done. Offered up arguments already dealt with, and ignored the arguments presented as rebuttal to same arguments.

On another thread I pasted something I wrote about 'The Prophet Abel.'

I am sure it is the "end of the story" as well.

The full version is here:
The Prophet Abel

If I have time I will take a look. But, this is typical, "See my wonderful treatise here..."

How about just addressing the points and Scripture in this thread?

I know you don't read anything from links (which is your loss), but some may find it helpful.

Why do I need to go searching again when in this thread you are posed with direct points and address of your own?

Shall I chase after more nonsense?


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

Actually they were not. As you have been told repeatedly, they...


1. Had not had their sins forgiven;

2. Were not reconciled to God;

3. Were not eternally indwelt;

4. Were not liberated from Sheol/Hades;

5. Had not gone to be with God in Heaven;

6. Were not privy to the Gospel of Christ.


I'd say our salvation has an advantage. We will die in faith as they did, the primary difference being...we have received the Promises of God while we are alive.


God bless.

They well still saved though!

 

[Darrell C]

They well still saved though!

I agree.

But, they were not eternally redeemed. It's a simple point, Yeshua1. It's an irrefutable point, Yeshua1.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

To be born again there had to be a body (of Christ) to be born, Spiritually baptized into- prior to being quickened


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sorry I missed this.

I agree fully with this statement, and that is one of the points raised: it is not until men are baptized into Christ that the Body of Christ begins. We see in John 14 that the Disciples were not yet eternally indwelt:


John 14:15-23
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Secondly we see that being "one in Christ," as described above by the Lord, came about through faith in Christ:


Ephesians 2:14-16
King James Version (KJV)

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:


Lastly (for now), we see that the new creature is a result of being made one with Him:


2 Corinthians 5:17-19
King James Version (KJV)

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


God bless.