Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

When Christ returns He will establish the Millennial Kingdom, as prophesied in both Old Testament Prophecy as well as in New Testament Prophecy. That Kingdom will last one thousand years, and as Christ taught, no man will enter into that Kingdom except he be born again.

We enter into the Kingdom of God which is the spiritual rule of God in the hearts of men through faith in Christ. Old Testament Saints did this as well, however, they were not translated into the Kingdom established by Christ at His First Coming.

This...


Matthew 11:11
King James Version (KJV)

11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.


...is Christ distinguishing between that coming Kingdom He would establish through the establishment of the New Covenant and the Old Testament Saints, of which John is said to be the greatest. Yet the least in the Kingdom of Heaven (synonymous with the Kingdom of God) is greater than he.

We would rule out the Millennial Kingdom as applicable because there will be unbelievers born unto those who enter into that Kingdom.

ANd it is better to be made perfect at the time of salvation, is it not?

Not to die awaiting redemption from our transgressions. Not to die awaiting reconciliation with God. Not to die awaiting the time when Christ would bestow eternal life unto them that believe on His Name.

You can look at the tense/s here.

He was made perfect (complete) through His suffering, and He is the Author of Eternal Salvation to those Who obey Him.

No need to rely on opinion when the Word of GOd tells us that we are already born again through salvation in Christ:


1 Peter 1
King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1 Peter 1:23
King James Version (KJV)

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


Titus 3:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Regeneration is the result of our being immersed into God in eternal union. We are new creatures because we have that which we were born without...eternal life, which is what Christ came to bestow on those that believe on His Name.


God bless.

 

Both are generated by God.

Faith in God in the Old Testament was a result of God revealing His will to men. Believing and obedience are not two separate issues.

Faith in Christ is also a result of God revealing His will to men. One primary difference, though, is that HE is doing this directly to every individual through the Ministry of the Comforter in this Age.

Consider:


John 16:7-9
King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


He ministers to the lost, the world, to all men. His goal is to glorify Christ that those who do not believe on Christ...will believe.

When He returns, Christ will take vengeance on those that do not know God because they obey not the Gospel:


2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
King James Version (KJV)

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:


Keep in mind one cannot be charged with not obeying something they are unaware of. Also keep in mind that it is through the Gospel that we come to know God.

And when we preach the Gospel we do so through the power of the Holy Spirit, or put better, the Holy Spirit ministers through us:


1 Peter 1:12
King James Version (KJV)

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


God bless.

 

Correct.

Men cannot be saved through efforts of their will:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Being born of God, which is made synonymous with being made children of God here, began when Christ came unto His Own (Israel).

The will of man and the flesh is denied as a cause for Regeneration.


God bless.

 

Hebrews makes it clear that the Old Testament Saints did not receive the promises given in the Old Testament, and if you read Hebrews you will see that remission of sins on an eternal basis was one of those promises. Most of the promises given them are fulfilled in the New Covenant through Christ.

So unless we want to say that men are born again not placing faith in Jesus Christ's death, burial, and Resurrection, we must not impose the fulfillment of promise when in fact all they had was...the promise.

Hebrews 11 makes it clear they didn't receive those, but died in faith awaiting them.


God bless.

 

And the only problem your opinion has is that Scripture denies it:


John 16:7
King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


Acts 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


The teaching that one can get some and more of the Holy Ghost is absurd.

Start reading the Scriptures given you, my friend.


God bless.

 

Martin, you can't really expect me to field multiple references to verify your position...for you.

If you think it is relevant...post it.

You do not even address the point I give you here, where the Disciples knew the Lord was the Messiah, yet they were not believing on Him. I gave you multiple passages already that I took the time to post so you wouldn't have to go and look for them, and you ignored them.

Your texts:


John 4:25-26
King James Version (KJV)

25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.


How does this change what we already know? You assume that this woman is born again because she believes Jesus to be the Messiah?

Here is Scripture showing that the Disciples were not believing on Christ as the Savior. The Messiah, yes, but not the Risen Savior, which the only way men can be born again.

And I will simply rep-ost just one of the several posts given in repsonse to this same argument:

Exactly what it says, the Father revealed unto them that Jesus was in fact the Christ.

But Martin, do not mistake that for the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel, because when Christ gives them the Gospel immediately afterwards, Peter (the spokesman) rejects the Gospel:


Exactly what it says, the Father revealed unto them that Jesus was in fact the Christ.

But Martin, do not mistake that for the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel, because when Christ gives them the Gospel immediately afterwards, Peter (the spokesman) rejects the Gospel:

See original post

Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.


I would first point out that Christ forbids them to convey the truth that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Christ gives them the Gospel...


21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.


...and one question I would ask is, "...from that time forth?" Does it not indicate that Christ was not going around preaching the Gospel that was a MYstery that would be revealed by the Promised Spirit? It marks a point in time when He began to tell the Disciples of HIs impending death.

Now, Peter's opposition to the very Gospel of Jesus Christ:

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Having the benefit of the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel, and the completed Canon, what would you say to Peter if you could be transported back to that time and had been there when Peter makes this statement?

"Uh, Peter, that is the only thing that will keep you from an eternity of separation from God in Hell."

The reason why Peter rebukes the Lord is because he has not yet been made to understand the Scriptures:


John 20:8-9
King James Version (KJV)

8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.


Only God can enlighten the natural mind to spiritual truths, and He does that here:


Luke 24:25-27
King James Version (KJV)

25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


Luke 24:44-49
King James Version (KJV)

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.


And Christ defines the Promise of the Father here:


Acts 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


Continued...

 

Here are the rest of your texts:


John 11:27
King James Version (KJV)

27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.


John 20:31
King James Version (KJV)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


Acts 2:36
King James Version (KJV)

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


Acts 8:5
King James Version (KJV)

5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.


Acts 9:20-22
King James Version (KJV)

20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

21 But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?

22 But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.


Acts 16:31
King James Version (KJV)

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.


Acts 18:5
King James Version (KJV)

5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.


Acts 18:28
King James Version (KJV)

28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.


Okay, now I have "considered" the texts you gave, and not a single one supports new birth prior to Pentecost, and not a single one denies the point I have already made:

Nothing shows that though they were believing that Jesus was the Christ...that they were believing on Him in a capacity by which they received eternal redemption:


John 20:8-9
King James Version (KJV)

8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.


Nothing is going to change the fact that Christ came to bestow eternal life:


1 John 1
King James Version (KJV)

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)


Or that eternal life is through the Death, burial, and Resurrection of Christ through the receiving of the Gospel of Christ (which was a Mystery not revealed in the Age of Law):


John 6:49-53
King James Version (KJV)

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


1 Peter 1:3
King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


1 Peter 1:22-23
King James Version (KJV)

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


And nothing to nullify Christ's Own statements which clearly show the disciples were, in regards to believing on Christ as the Risen Savior (which again is how men are saved, hence immersed into God and born again), unbelievers, both before and after the Cross:


John 16:28-32
King James Version (KJV)

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


Nothing to nullify that the Scriptures were not yet opened to the Disciples that Christ should rise from the dead:


John 20:8-9
King James Version (KJV)

8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.


Nothing to deny that no man had received the eternal indwelling of God:


John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


John 14:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


All the texts you gave do is show men believing that Jesus was the Christ (some of them anyway), so I have just wasted quite a bit of time reiterating the same points not really addressed. You want me to address the Scripture you give in vague reference, so how about returning the favor?


Continued...

 

No, brother, the Disciples were not being trained in what was still Mystery:


Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


This is what "...eye hath not seen, ear hath not heard, nor has it entered into the hearts of men..."

It is the Hidden Wisdom of God, not revealed in past Ages:


Ephesians 3
King James Version (KJV)

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


Most make the mistake of confusing Paul's ministry to Gentiles with the Mystery that was hid in God (just as stated in Romans 16) from the beginning of the world.

If it was not made known in other Ages, and Jew and Gentile are now made one in Christ, and it is now revealed to His holy Apostles and Prophets...

...how in the world can you say...

It would not be until after the Spirit is sent that they would know the Scriptures that He should rise from the dead, and it is then they can believe on the REsurrected Lord and be saved, hence...born again:


John 14:26-29
King James Version (KJV)

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.


John 16:7-15
King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


Continued...

 

This is true. But that does not equate to men understanding that which Messiah would accomplish.

The Disciples are ground zero on that point.

And I do not think you would suggest that men can be born again apart from believing on Christ, or, apart from receiving the eternal life we receive which is a result of the Eternal Indwelling which results in the new creature.

If we are born again by the Resurrection in this Age, brother...


1 Peter 1:3
King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


...what were men born again by in the Old Testament?

Satan believes Jesus is the Christ, but he is not born again.

Again, you are taking one verse and giving it a universal application:


1 John 5
King James Version (KJV)

5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.


You do not give consideration to the difference between the two Ages. This verse is applicable only in the Age in which the Mystery has been revealed and men are receiving eternal life through Christ, being in Christ, eternally indwelt:


1 John 5:11
King James Version (KJV)

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.


This is the same thing he begins this epistle saying.

Men were not born of God until Christ came:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Being born from above is synonymous with being born of God, born of the Spirit, and born again.

And it did not begin until Christ came, and we know from Peter it was not until Pentecost, when men received Christ...


John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


...because Peter makes it clear we are born again by the Resurrection of Christ from the dead...


1 Peter 1:3
King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


...which makes it impossible to have men who are hard-hearted and unbelieving and who do not know the Scriptures that He should rise again...


Mark 16:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.


John 20:9
King James Version (KJV)

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.


...born again.


Continued...

 

He also tells him how men are going to be born again:


John 3:9-16
King James Version (KJV)

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Instead of thinking in a physical context (re-entering the womb of one's mother), Nicodemus should have immediately thought of Ezekiel 36-37.


Continued...

 

Didn't eternally redeem them.

Didn't eternally redeem them.

But they had not received eternal life.

And they would not until they were Baptized with the Holy Ghost, which is the time they received the promises given by God in the Old Testament, particularly Ezekiel 36:24-27.

Again, you make a universal rule out of one verse and ignore the numerous Scriptures which make it clear that the Disciples did not believe on Christ in a salvific context until after the Resurrection. Christ had to prove this to them.

Not just Thomas.

Martin, they were unbelieving, that is the Lord's Own judgment:


Mark 16:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.


They didn't know the Scriptures that He should rise from the dead:


John 20:9
King James Version (KJV)

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.


Nothing you say is going to change the reality of the condition of the Disciples until Pentecost.


Continued...

 

Martin, you haven't shown one verse that shows they were born again.

I have seen only a syllogistic conclusion drawn from making a universal application to a statement of John that those who believe that Jesus is the Christ are born of God.

The Disciples had it revealed to them by the Father that Jesus was the Christ and they were unbelieving in Christ as Savior until after the Resurrection.

No man was born again in the Old Testament.

The Disciples were not in Christ until after they were Baptized with the Holy Ghost, and if one does not have the Spirit of Christ they are not even God's:


2 Corinthians 5:17-19
King James Version (KJV)

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


No-one not in Christ is born again.

No-one not reconciled to GOd is born again.

No-one not forgiven through the Atonement is born again.


Continued...

 

The disciples were sent out preaching to two different audiences:


Matthew 10
King James Version (KJV)


5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Acts 1:8
King James Version (KJV)

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


Christ stated...


Matthew 15:24
King James Version (KJV)

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


The Gospel of the Kingdom was relevant to Israel only, the Gospel of Jesus Christ was relevant to the World.

Not when one looks at all relevant teachings.

You simply cannot impose regeneration into people who were hard-hearted and unbelieving.

Your proof-texts apply to a different Age, when the Gospel of Christ had been revealed, and was no longer Mystery.

It's just not something you can explain, brother.

Only the Gospel saves eternally.

Great. Where's your Scripture. Let's look at it.

David asked...


Psalm 51:11
King James Version (KJV)

11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.


We wouldn't ask that, because we know we are eternally indwelt. David didn't want what happened to Saul to happen to him.

But he, like David...did not call on the Name of Jesus the Christ.


And When Christ teaches of those who died, we do not see the brothers of the Rich Man directed to Jesus the Christ:


Luke 16:28-31
King James Version (KJV)

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


Why not?

Because Christ ministered under the Law and within the framework of the revelation provided men at that point.


Continued...

 

I agree, but what has that to do with Regeneration?

Repentance has always been brought about by God.

You don't address the point: believing Jesus is the Christ is not means by which men are saved, hence born again.

Obtaining eternal life is accomplished one way:


John 6:49-53
King James Version (KJV)

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


In view is believing on His death and Resurrection.

The Living Bread is the bread Christ gave, and He gave His flesh...on the Cross.

If a man does not embrace that truth he has no life.

That is the Word of Christ.

And not one Disciple did that until after the Resurrection.

No, brother, Christ makes the distinction between the Spirit being with the Disciples, and the Spirit being in the Disciples.

Same Spirit, and there is no validity to someone having "more of the Spirit."

Being "filled" with the Spirit is is a yielding to the Spirit, not a matter of us getting more. Not being filled with the Spirit means we are empty of His guidance. The filling has always been for the purpose of empowering ministry, that God might work through someone. Men are filled, and they go and do something, ol.

I think you'll find we can. Read Mark 10:47-52. The man knew Jesus as the Messiah, which knowledge only comes from God. [/QUOTE]


Mark 10:47-52
King James Version (KJV)

47 And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out, and say, Jesus, thou son of David, have mercy on me.

48 And many charged him that he should hold his peace: but he cried the more a great deal, Thou son of David, have mercy on me.

49 And Jesus stood still, and commanded him to be called. And they call the blind man, saying unto him, Be of good comfort, rise; he calleth thee.

50 And he, casting away his garment, rose, and came to Jesus.

51 And Jesus answered and said unto him, What wilt thou that I should do unto thee? The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight.

52 And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.


Martin, the man is blind. He is healed. Christ states his faith has saved him...from blindness.

Secondly, you don't think that eternal salvation is always in view when sōzō is used in a text?

Third, I would remind you of one small fact: No man is saved by faith.

We are saved by grace through faith, and that is an entirely different issue than being saved by faith.

And the one thing I have never said is that men were not "saved" in the Old Testament. They were saved based on being justified during their lifetimes, and this in the eternal perspective of God. But, if you look at Paul and James' teachings, you will see that the belief expressed by Abraham was not in Jesus Christ, but in the fact that God promised him a son through which He would bless all families of the earth, hence his faith was strong enough that he knew if he sacrificed Isaac God would be forced to raise him from the dead, from whence he (Abraham) received him in figure.

That is not the same as being...


Romans 3:24
King James Version (KJV)

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


If it were, we would not have as one of our most prominent themes in Scripture...the awaiting of Redemption and Redemption coming in the Person of Jesus Christ.

No man had eternal life prior to Christ's death:


Hebrews 9:12
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


No man had eternal remission of sins until Christ died:


Hebrews 9:15
King James Version (KJV)

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


The promises were given in the Old Testament, but, not received. These all died in faith not having received the promises.


God bless.