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Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?
- Thread starter Darrell C
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You should be able to recover the post by hitting the back button until you get that page. Or, left-click on the back button and it should give you a list of where you have been.
God bless.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Okay, I will repost it and you can reply if you want to, but I am not going to get into a back-and-forth on it. The post will stand on its own and your post can stand on its own, as far as my participation is concerned.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Revelation 20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
"In connection with this ‘thousand year reign’ of verses 4-6 we shall answer three questions.
First, where does it take place? According to the passage which we are considering it takes place in three places.
(i) The thousand year reign occurs where the thrones are, for we read: ‘And I saw thrones and they sat upon them.' ...
(ii) The thousand year reign also occurs where the disembodied souls of the martyrs are, for we read: ‘And I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus. ’ John sees souls, not bodies. ... The souls reign during this entire present dispensation until Christ’s second coming. Afterwards, it is no longer the souls that reign, for then body and soul are together again. Then the saints reign, not for a limited though lengthy period—a thousand years—but ‘for ever and ever’ (22: 5).
(iii) The thousand year reign also occurs where Jesus lives, for we read ‘And they lived and reigned with Christ.... ’ The question is, where, according to the Apocalypse, is the place from which the exalted Mediator rules the universe? Where does Jesus live? Clearly, it is in heaven. ...
The next question that has to be answered is, what is its character? The nature of this reign may be summarized in four ways as follows.
(i) It is judging with Christ. The ransomed souls in heaven praise Christ for His righteous judgments. They constantly sing: ‘True and righteous are his judgments.' ...
(ii) It is living with Christ: ‘they did live and did reign’ (see Rev. 7: 9 ff). In heaven these souls respond in a perfect manner to a perfect environment. And what is life but that?
(iii) It is a sharing of royal glory with Christ. These souls celebrate the Lamb’s, and thus their own, victory. ...
(iv) It is ‘the first resurrection’. The first resurrection is the translation of the soul from this sinful earth to God’s holy heaven. It is followed at Christ’s second coming by the second resurrection when the body, too, will be glorified.
Our final question is, who participates in this reign? The answer is simple and easy. First of all, all the souls of the martyrs, ‘those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus’. Secondly, all other believers who died in their faith, ‘such as worshipped not the beast’, etc. The rest of the dead, that is, all other men who died, the unbelieving dead, lived not until the thousand years are finished. When that period is finished, then there is a change. Then they enter ‘the second death’. In other words, they receive everlasting punishment: not only as for the soul but now also for the body. The change is not for better but for the worse. On the other hand, those who have part in the first resurrection are blessed and holy. Over them the second death has no power. Not only shall they reign with Christ, but they shall also worship God in Christ as priests throughout the thousand years (Rev. 1:6; 5:10)."
- from William Hendriksen's More Than Conquerors
"In connection with this ‘thousand year reign’ of verses 4-6 we shall answer three questions.
First, where does it take place? According to the passage which we are considering it takes place in three places.
(i) The thousand year reign occurs where the thrones are, for we read: ‘And I saw thrones and they sat upon them.' ...
(ii) The thousand year reign also occurs where the disembodied souls of the martyrs are, for we read: ‘And I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus. ’ John sees souls, not bodies. ... The souls reign during this entire present dispensation until Christ’s second coming. Afterwards, it is no longer the souls that reign, for then body and soul are together again. Then the saints reign, not for a limited though lengthy period—a thousand years—but ‘for ever and ever’ (22: 5).
(iii) The thousand year reign also occurs where Jesus lives, for we read ‘And they lived and reigned with Christ.... ’ The question is, where, according to the Apocalypse, is the place from which the exalted Mediator rules the universe? Where does Jesus live? Clearly, it is in heaven. ...
The next question that has to be answered is, what is its character? The nature of this reign may be summarized in four ways as follows.
(i) It is judging with Christ. The ransomed souls in heaven praise Christ for His righteous judgments. They constantly sing: ‘True and righteous are his judgments.' ...
(ii) It is living with Christ: ‘they did live and did reign’ (see Rev. 7: 9 ff). In heaven these souls respond in a perfect manner to a perfect environment. And what is life but that?
(iii) It is a sharing of royal glory with Christ. These souls celebrate the Lamb’s, and thus their own, victory. ...
(iv) It is ‘the first resurrection’. The first resurrection is the translation of the soul from this sinful earth to God’s holy heaven. It is followed at Christ’s second coming by the second resurrection when the body, too, will be glorified.
Our final question is, who participates in this reign? The answer is simple and easy. First of all, all the souls of the martyrs, ‘those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus’. Secondly, all other believers who died in their faith, ‘such as worshipped not the beast’, etc. The rest of the dead, that is, all other men who died, the unbelieving dead, lived not until the thousand years are finished. When that period is finished, then there is a change. Then they enter ‘the second death’. In other words, they receive everlasting punishment: not only as for the soul but now also for the body. The change is not for better but for the worse. On the other hand, those who have part in the first resurrection are blessed and holy. Over them the second death has no power. Not only shall they reign with Christ, but they shall also worship God in Christ as priests throughout the thousand years (Rev. 1:6; 5:10)."
- from William Hendriksen's More Than Conquerors
Going to answer this in detail, but first I would like to ask for an answer to the question: are there two resurrections in Revelation 20 or just one?
William Hendrikson doesn't answer this question.
God bless.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Ahem. In the post above there are these two sentences: "The first resurrection is the translation of the soul from this sinful earth to God’s holy heaven. It is followed at Christ’s second coming by the second resurrection when the body, too, will be glorified." (emphasis mine)
KenH
Well-Known Member
Just to put a bow on my participation in this thread, anyone reading this thread and who might be interested in William Hendriksen's commentary on the book of Revelation entitled, More Than Conquerors, it is available free online as a PDF here:
Hendricksen-W-More_Than_Conquerors_-1940.pdf (tn-biblecollege.edu)
Hendricksen-W-More_Than_Conquerors_-1940.pdf (tn-biblecollege.edu)
There never were any sins ever remitted any lost sinner their sins due to shed blood of animals, and was on the basis of the shed blood of Christ!
Used to be!
The Cross of Christ was and is the only basis that the Father could ever remit sins and justify lost sinners!
So the first point would be: where the thousand years takes place. And this commentator has taken the position that it takes place in Heaven. Not on the earth.
Now some would say (and I lean that way) that the Church will be in Heaven during the thousand years, and that our interaction with the earth will be similar to that of Angels now.
However, we must back up to show that this first resurrection is not the conclusion of the earth, as this commentator would have his students believe:
Revelation 20 King James Version
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Now, unless one believes that Satan might be bothering the redeemed in Heaven while this thousand years takes place, it makes more sense to view the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs as taking place where their bodies are: on the earth.
When Satan is released after the thousand years, again, another indication that he isn't making trouble in Heaven:
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Seems like the Saints will be camped out on the earth.
And while I would not deny the Church will be in Heaven, what I would deny is that there will be a joint rulership between God and Man in Heaven:
1 Corinthians 15:28 King James Version
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Secondly, "a thousand years" denies that this is the Eternal State. That the Tribulation Martyrs will live (again, implied by the fact that they were beheaded) and reign with Christ looks more to the teaching of Christ in a temporal context:
Matthew 19:28 King James Version
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
When we look at Christ's parables we see teachings that will not fit into an eternal context. For example:
Matthew 25:28 King James Version
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Will the King, when He returns, have a kingdom in which money will be used?
Obviously, the "where" of the thousand years is connected to the earth itself, not Heaven. So the first address of the first point would be to say it is an attempt to remove a temporal context and replace it with a spiritualized view of the thousand years.
And even this does not work, because we still have a thousand years to deal with. Unless they want to equally conclude that the Eternal State will only last for a thousand years?
Continued...
Some have seen it as being when saved the first resurrection from death unto life, some as you stated here, and many others as the resurrected at the second coming event, and at the great white thrown event
This commentator doesn't seem to understand that they are "souls" because they are still persons. He argues that because these souls have no bodies they are in Heaven.
Not necessary, it is completely proper to call disembodied spirits souls. Men are souls, rather than men have souls. There is a thread in Baptist Theology and Bible Study if one wants to read a more thorough discussion of that topic.
How exactly can these "souls reign during this entire dispensation until Christ's Second Coming?"
This is absurd.
The Tribulation Martyrs are raised again after His Second Coming (Revelation 19).
Secondly, he trying to say that the souls in Heaven are now reigning, and when the Tribulation Martyrs are resurrected we see a shift in power and then they receive their bodies and, quite in opposition to the Scripture he just posted, the Eternal State begins and men are joint rulers with Christ.
See that? When the first resurrection takes place they don't reign for a thousand years but for ever.
Is that in the text?
Revelation 20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Not unless someone puts it there, as our commentator is doing.
The Tribulation Martyrs are the only ones said to be resurrected at this time, and it is clear they were killed during the Tribulation, for it is them that one would be forced to resist Antichrist (the Beast).
Again we see no answer to my original question, are there two resurrections in Revelation 20 or just one. It is obvious this commentator, and the one who copy and pasted his work, wants his students to believe contrary to a very plain and simple statement of the Word of God.
Continued...
This is true, however, the thousand years refers to events on the earth—every time.
The bodies of the Tribulation Martyrs are on earth, not in Heaven. They will be resurrected on earth, just as the dead in Christ will be in the Pre-Tribulational Rapture. Just as the living in Christ will be. Just as the Two Witnesses are raised from the dead and then caught up (raptured, and this 3 1/2 years before the end of the Tribulation).
There is no account of a resurrection that takes place in Heaven to be found in Scripture. That denies Heaven as the "where" of the First Resurrection.
Continued...
And the idea that we will be joint rulers of Christ in Heaven is absurd.
Revelation 21:7 King James Version
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Revelation 22 King James Version
22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Kind of difficult to call a servant a joint ruler.
The only Joint-Ruler is Christ Jesus, the Lamb of God.
Continued...
Correct, they live again and reign with Christ for one thousand years.
This commentator denies this simple statement found in Scripture:
He gives as a proof text Revelation 22:5, lol:
Revelation 22 King James Version
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Did the Holy Ghost correct Himself and add "they shall reign for ever and ever?"
No, the Ones that will reign forever and ever are God and the Lamb. The Eternal Son of God is still in that glorified body He was raised in.
This is a poorly constructed work by this commentator. If he would simply trust in the Word of God he would not be ascribing to the redeemed joint rulership with God.
Continued...
I would agree we will partake of His glory when we are glorified, but that doesn't extend to joint rulership.
This is simply poor interpretation on the part of the commentator.
Continued...
No, the First Resurrection is the bodily resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs.
It's right there in the text:
Revelation 20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
There is nothing in there about them going to Heaven, and plenty to show that this has a temporal context.
Satan is bound so he cannot deceive the nations during the thousand years. Will he deceive in Heaven? Or earth?
When he is loosed for a short season (which I believe will be 75 days, according to Daniel 12) he will deceive the nations on earth. Not in Heaven.
When the thousand years are over we see this current creation (universe) pass away:
Revelation 20:11 King James Version
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
And guess what?
There is only one throne there.
If you cannot see the ridiculous nature of this commentary and the blatant contradiction to what is actually stated in Scripture, then I would suggest simply reading Scripture for yourself. Put down the commentaries until after you are familiar with the Scripture, then test what is being said.
Continued...
Well, that question has already been asked and answered, but okay.
So far so good. A recognition that only Tribulation Martyrs are specifically said to be raised in the First Resurrection.
And if you might be thinking that isn't going to be a lot of people, you may bright, but then again we see half of the world's population die in the Tribulation.
RIght now that is roughly 4 billion people, folks.
Continued...
There is no division between those who are raised as the commentator would have his students believe:
Revelation 20 King James Version
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Where does it say those on the thrones are a separate group (though this is very possible)? And where does it say they are resurrected?
He saw those that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.
Clearly from the Tribulation, and clearly the only ones raised at this time.
nothing is said about those who are living, and according to proper interpretation there is one single fact that denies the attempt of the commentator: the living are raised after the believing dead in the Rapture.
Just a fact that isn't going to be changed by commentary:
1 Thessalonians 4:15 New American Standard Bible
15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
I give the NASB because some might not understand that the word "prevent" in the Old English means precede.
There is no raising of the living believers in Revelation 20 in regards to the "first" resurrection.
What does follow is the thousand-year reign of Christ on the earth.
Continued...
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