Were non-Calvinists predestinated to be non-Calvinists?

[Dave G]

Apologies for stepping in, as I recognize that you were addressing @atpollard ,
But I'd like to offer my reply on this:

A) What's the functional difference between "predestinated" and "ordained"?

To me, there is none, George.
Please allow me to explain:

Predestine = "To determine the destiny of something before-hand."
Ordain = "To commission or to appoint to something".


Examples of "Predestinated" / Predestined":

Romans 8:29: " For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
Context: Those that were foreknown ( and only those that were foreknown ) God predestinated ( determined the destiny of before-hand ) to be conformed to the image of His Son.

Ephesians 1:5: " having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"
Context:: Those that were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ) Ephesians 1:4 ), were predestinated to their adoption as God's children.
They were done so to the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein ( in His grace ) they were made accepted in the beloved ( the spiritual body of Christ ).
See Ephesians 2:10 for further support that the Ephesian believers are God's workmanship that were created "in Christ Jesus".

Ephesians 1:11: " in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"
Context: The Ephesian believers are being told that the Lord is going to gather "all things" together "in Christ Jesus" ( Ephesians 1:10 )...
Both those things that are in Heaven, and those things that are in earth.
Since there is nothing in Heaven that is sinful, then what is being gathered in earth is also without sin in God's eyes.

They have obtained an inheritance, and it was because they were predestinated to it according to the purpose of "Him who works all things after the counsel of His will " ( God's will ).


Examples of "Ordain / Ordained":

Acts of the Apostles 13:48
1 Peter 1:20.
Titus 1:5 ( see Acts of the Apostles 20:28 for who it is that actually made the elders overseers of the flock ).

B) Does that then mean that verses about God ordaining things or people cannot be used to prove predestination, since the two are different?

Again, the two are not functionally different,
as it is God who does the ordaining, and not men.

From earlier threads, ( especially where you addressed Ephesians 1:4, 1 Peter 1:20 and Revelation 13:8 ) I see you not making the connection between the two terms.
Therefore, I don't understand the question, George...

The two are not different,
in that "ordain" and "predestine" both originate with God who is the one that is making the decision.

 

[Dave G]

Wow, you just destroyed my response! I'm devastated!

My intention was not to cause you harm, sir.

It was to address something that I feel you may not be aware of...
How you come across to others in your posts.
In other words, you seem to make accusations where none are warranted.
May I suggest that you ( and anyone else who is tempted to slip in a similar style post ) please remember Galatians 5:13-26?

As I see it,
it's OK to disagree with others of your brothers and sisters...

But should we then mock or ridicule them in the process?

 

[Dave G]

How can God be in complete control of every thing if He can't stop you from sinning?

He can and did stop someone from sinning, MB:

" And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her." ( Genesis 20:6 ).

His power is far and away above what we are able to comprehend, my friend.

 

[AustinC]

How can God be in complete control of every thing if He can't stop you from sinning?
MB

Do you REALLY think God cannot stop you from doing anything, let alone sinning?

What you really want to know is why God doesn't stop people from sinning. This means that you are really demanding that God be fair.
Do you REALLY want God to act fairly with our pathetic sinful selves? If God acted fairly with sinners, there would be no humans left on the planet and everyone would burn eternally in hell. Is THAT what you REALLY want?

 

[atpollard]

How can God be in complete control of every thing if He can't stop you from sinning?

1. God IS in complete control of everything ... I already gave you a long list of Scriptures that say so. (to which you only asked to see the word "Sovereign" in the NASB). So beginning an argument "How can God be in complete control ..." is just nonsense. Stop right there and accept the TRUTH of Scripture. Then you can begin to ask "How does God exercise His complete control?"

2. Please stop moving the goal posts. I never said that "God cannot stop you from sinning" and Scripture does not say that God cannot stop you from sinning. That is also not what you said before. What you said was ...

God can do any thing He wishes though He never makes us sin. God temps no man to sin

... and I agreed with this.

There is a BIG difference between

• STATEMENT A: God can do anything. God never makes us sin. God tempts no man to sin.
• STATEMENT B: God cannot stop you from sinning.

God being unwilling to cause sin is not identical to God being unable to stop sin.
Did God MAKE the Israelites worship a Golden Calf in the desert?
Did God STOP the Israelites from worship a Golden Calf in the desert?
God was not the cause of the sin, but God definitely stopped the sin.

God sets boundaries for our sinful nature that allow us to go so far and no further. Romans 1 describes the process of God slowly lifting His hand of restraint to allow us to follow our evil desires ever further from His light.

[Rom 1:18-19 NASB] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

• God made the truth known and ALLOWED men to suppress it.

[Rom 1:22-24 NASB] 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.

• Men chose idols, so God chose to remove some restraint and free then to follow the desire of their hearts.

[Rom 1:25-27 NASB] 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

• Men followed their heart and turned from the Creator, so God withdrew more restraint and allowed the passion of their flesh to follow the darkness of their heart.

[Rom 1:28-32 NASB] 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; [they are] gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

• Once men have exercised their freedom to reject God with their heart and body, God lifts the restraint and surrenders them to the depravity of their mind.

Throughout the process, God was the CAUSE of none of the sin and God tempted no one to sin. Yet God was never out of control, because it was ALWAYS God that said "this far and no further".

 

[InTheLight]

What you really want to know is why God doesn't stop people from sinning. This means that you are really demanding that God be fair.
Do you REALLY want God to act fairly with our pathetic sinful selves? If God acted fairly with sinners, there would be no humans left on the planet and everyone would burn eternally in hell. Is THAT what you REALLY want?

Wow. Mind reading and strawman building in just a few sentences. Densely packed stuff here, folks.

 

[Van]

Calvinism in regards to TULIP is of God though, as sinful man would not dream up a grace based theology, but keep to own good works!

You should file this post with "my country, right or wrong."

 

[Van]

Did God predestine Judas to fulfill the betrayer prophecy? Certainly. When Judas was chosen for that purpose, he was not allowed to come to faith in Jesus. John 6:64-71

Thus "a betrayer" was predestined with the prophecy, and Judas was specifically predestined when he was chosen for that purpose.

 

[AustinC]

Wow. Mind reading and strawman building in just a few sentences. Densely packed stuff here, folks.

You just deflected from what I wrote. It is your MO to run from what is shared and cry strawman while running away. That's your choice, if you wish to do so, but anyone reading our dialogue can discern what has been said.

 

[MB]

1. God IS in complete control of everything ... I already gave you a long list of Scriptures that say so. (to which you only asked to see the word "Sovereign" in the NASB). So beginning an argument "How can God be in complete control ..." is just nonsense. Stop right there and accept the TRUTH of Scripture. Then you can begin to ask "How does God exercise His complete control?"

The word it self is a mistranslation in the NASB
I'm convinced the people who own the NASB changed the word from the original text because the ASB says;
1Ti 6:15 which in its own times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen.

2. Please stop moving the goal posts. I never said that "God cannot stop you from sinning" and Scripture does not say that God cannot stop you from sinning. That is also not what you said before. What you said was ...


... and I agreed with this.

There is a BIG difference between

• STATEMENT A: God can do anything. God never makes us sin. God tempts no man to sin.
• STATEMENT B: God cannot stop you from sinning.

God being unwilling to cause sin is not identical to God being unable to stop sin.
Did God MAKE the Israelites worship a Golden Calf in the desert?
Did God STOP the Israelites from worship a Golden Calf in the desert?
God was not the cause of the sin, but God definitely stopped the sin.

God sets boundaries for our sinful nature that allow us to go so far and no further. Romans 1 describes the process of God slowly lifting His hand of restraint to allow us to follow our evil desires ever further from His light.

[Rom 1:18-19 NASB] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

• God made the truth known and ALLOWED men to suppress it.

Fascinating that a Calvinist would admit that God allows men any thing except the choice to trust in Him. He allows men to sin but nothing else. And all this to convince the Israelites to do according to the Law, Why didn't He just force them.

[Rom 1:22-24 NASB] 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.

• Men chose idols, so God chose to remove some restraint and free then to follow the desire of their hearts.

[Rom 1:25-27 NASB] 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

• Men followed their heart and turned from the Creator, so God withdrew more restraint and allowed the passion of their flesh to follow the darkness of their heart.

[Rom 1:28-32 NASB] 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; [they are] gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

• Once men have exercised their freedom to reject God with their heart and body, God lifts the restraint and surrenders them to the depravity of their mind.

Throughout the process, God was the CAUSE of none of the sin and God tempted no one to sin. Yet God was never out of control, because it was ALWAYS God that said "this far and no further".

I'm aware of this I've read it many times How this proves man has no choice in which path to follow boggles the mind.

In fact man has a choice just as Israel did. Isreal just refused and God gave them there head to do even more evil. They refused all the miracles performed by God and still lusted after sin Even after that the people were not completely given up on. There descendants were a bit more successful they took all the gold and built all the articles of the temple and the Ark which to carry the His commandments
So in fact God is not always in control and He did give Isreal many more blessings than they deserved. He did not force them to to follow the Law He made. Choice is the only explanation.
MB

 

[MB]

Do you REALLY think God cannot stop you from doing anything, let alone sinning?

Let me put it this way God has not forced Him Self on me in any way He has answered my prayers always. Some times He says no. Some times He says yes. He saved me when I first trusted in Him He did not save me with out my willingness.

What you really want to know is why God doesn't stop people from sinning. This means that you are really demanding that God be fair.

I'm 100% sure that I make no demands of God and God is fair People get exactly what they deserve all He ask is that we follow Him.

Do you REALLY want God to act fairly with our pathetic sinful selves? If God acted fairly with sinners, there would be no humans left on the planet and everyone would burn eternally in hell. Is THAT what you REALLY want?

There is only one way out of punishment. That is repent and believe If you haven't I would advise that you do.
MB

 

[Dave G]

Fascinating that a Calvinist would admit that God allows men any thing except the choice to trust in Him.

God allows men to trust Him as well.
But there's a problem, MB...

Why won't we trust Him in and of ourselves?
Why won't we come to the Light?

" In him was life; and the life was the light of men." ( John 1:4 ).

" And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." ( John 3:19-20 ). <------------ Here it is.

" Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." ( John 8:12 ).

" As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." ( John 9:5 ).

 

[atpollard]

Fascinating that a Calvinist would admit that God allows men any thing except the choice to trust in Him.

Oops ... there go those goal posts running down the field again.

I said no such thing.
Here again is what you said that I agree with:

1. God can do anything that He chooses to do.
2. God causes no one to sin.
3. God does not tempt people to sin.

That is NOT THE SAME as “God allows men any thing except the choice to trust in Him.”

 

[atpollard]

The word it self is a mistranslation in the NASB
I'm convinced the people who own the NASB changed the word from the original text because the ASB says;
1Ti 6:15 which in its own times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen.

No, it is not a mistranslation since many other translations also use “Sovereign” rather than “Potentate”.

What is the difference between a “Sovereign” and a “Potentate”?
Is a “Potentate” not Sovereign?

 

[Alan Gross]

The

Were non-Calvinists predestinated to be non-Calvinists?
And if yes, why try to change their mind since it is, according to Calvinism, unchangeable?

The Condemned in sin have the opportunity to be Saved in this life, prior to Jesus Second coming, at which time there is no second chance.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

No, it is not a mistranslation since many other translations also use “Sovereign” rather than “Potentate”.

What is the difference between a “Sovereign” and a “Potentate”?
Is a “Potentate” not Sovereign?

But a ruler can be rebelled against against His will. Just my 2 cents

 

[AustinC]

Let me put it this way God has not forced Him Self on me in any way He has answered my prayers always. Some times He says no. Some times He says yes. He saved me when I first trusted in Him He did not save me with out my willingness.



I'm 100% sure that I make no demands of God and God is fair People get exactly what they deserve all He ask is that we follow Him.



There is only one way out of punishment. That is repent and believe If you haven't I would advise that you do.
MB

People get exactly what they deserve?! That's ludicrous! You and I deserve outer darkness and damnation, yet by the grace of God we will never see that hell, which was created for demons.

By you making such a claim, you prove you base your salvation on your works and thus fail to grasp God's work in saving you against your evil will.

 

[AustinC]

But a ruler can be rebelled against against His will. Just my 2 cents

A human ruler.
Can you, Steve, stop God from doing whatever He wills?

 

[Steven Yeadon]

A human ruler.
Can you, Steve, stop God from doing whatever He wills?

I have no power to hurt the LORD unless He gives me such power. He is God Almighty after all.

But, considering the Prophets, it becomes clear that, biblically, God is a ruler that, due to His humility in allowing mankind to have wills, is rebelled against. For example, He reaches out to His lover, Israel, again and again only to be hated. Why does YHVH act the way He does, like a jilted lover? I mean Ezekiel and Jeremiah show this. He is still all knowing, though I do not claim to know how His omniscience works, His mind and ways are lofty above mine to the heavens.

That said, I don't want to engage too much without explicit scriptural support that I am assembling for my case for free will to be posted in a few days.

 

[AustinC]

I have no power to hurt the LORD unless He gives me such power. He is God Almighty after all.

But, considering the Prophets, it becomes clear that, biblically, God is a ruler that, due to His humility in allowing mankind to have wills, is rebelled against. For example, He reaches out to His lover, Israel, again and again only to be hated. Why does YHVH act the way He does, like a jilted lover? I mean Ezekiel and Jeremiah show this. He is still all knowing, though I do not claim to know how His omniscience works, His mind and ways are lofty above mine to the heavens.

That said, I don't want to engage too much without explicit scriptural support that I am assembling for my case for free will to be posted in a few days.

Yes, God ordains human rebellion against Him. Should God choose to ordain the end of rebellion, no human can stop God.
We should be amazed at the mercy of God, both toward humans and toward fallen angels. He, in His Sovereignty chooses not to bring His full wrath against rebels. This mercy will end when the last elect person comes to faith.